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Federal Politics 2013-

Apr 17, 2014

BludgerTrack: 51.3-48.7 to Labor

This week's Nielsen result prompts a startling shift to the Greens in the weekly poll aggregate, which in turn drives a solid move to Labor on two-party preferred.

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Nielsen has this week thrown a spanner into the BludgerTrack works, producing a dramatic shift on the basis of a result that’s yet to be corroborated by anybody else. The big mover is of course the Greens, who have shot up five points to the giddy heights of 15.4%, a result I wouldn’t attach much credit to until it’s backed by more than one data point. Only a small share of the gain comes at the expense of Labor, who have accordingly made a strong gain on two-party preferred and are in majority government territory on the seat projection. A further point of interest with respect to the Nielsen poll is that the two-party preferred response on respondent-allocated preferences, which is not published by Fairfax, is at 54.5-45.5 considerably stronger for Labor than the headline result from previous election preferences. This may reflect a swelling in Greens support from the ranks of disaffected Labor identifiers, and a consequent increase in the Greens preference flow to Labor in comparison with the 2013 election result – which may in turn suggest the headline two-party result from the poll flattered the Coalition a little.

The other aspect of the latest BludgerTrack result which may raise an eyebrow is the strength of the Labor swing in Queensland, which also blew out excessively in January before moderating considerably thereafter. The Queensland breakdown from this week’s Nielsen played its part, showing Labor ahead 53-47 for a swing of around 10%. However, in this case the Nielsen is not out on a limb, providing the model with one of five Queensland data points from the past four weeks which all show Labor in the lead, with two-party results ranging from 51.1% to 56.5% (keeping in mind that sample sizes are in some cases below 200). The scattered state results provided by Morgan are not included in the model, but its poll release last week reported that Labor held a lead in Queensland of 51-49.

Nielsen also provides new data points for leadership ratings, and in keeping with the general weakness of the poll for the Coalition, their addition to the model puts Bill Shorten’s net approval rating back in front of Tony Abbott’s, and returns the narrowing trajectory to the preferred prime minister trendlines.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

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1593 comments

1,593 thoughts on “BludgerTrack: 51.3-48.7 to Labor

  1. Boerwar

    BB
    Doncha know that Abbott is pro-science?

  2. AussieAchmed

    Ellis actually writing what so many know to be the truth.

  3. sprocket_

    This whole “Infrastructure PM” tag which Abbott aspires to symptomatic of the Liberal DNA – it is learnt in the petty rezoning scams at local councils with the white shoe brigade property developers.

    Di Girolamo has risen up the greasy pole so far he was trying to get the Balmain Tigers clubhouse (on Victoria road Rozelle) rezoned for skyscraper apartments and shopping malls in an already congested area. Sadly, his lobbying on this one has failed (so far).

    No wonder Abbott got so angry when his Infrastructure PM announcement was derailed by BoF and the “corruption” question.

  4. lizzie

    Boerwar

    I respect you too much to try to tell you anything 😆

  5. AussieAchmed

    George Brandis says it is “deplorable” deniers are being excluded from the climate change debate and people who say the science is settled are ignorant and medieval.

    This from the Party that is closing down anything and everything that is working towards sustainable and renewable energy to address climate change.

    While his Govt sidlines climate change scientists he stands with that well credentialed scientist and all his peer reviewed papers – Bolt the Dolt.

  6. lizzie

    http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2014/04/19/abbotts-assault-the-abc/1397829600#.U1HSBVWSyKJ

    Quentin Dempster defending the ABC.
    [The ABC board seems to be on the backfoot and reeling. The public broadcasters are now working on their survival strategies as hostility intensifies before the May 13 budget, expected to deliver them drastic funding cuts despite promises to the contrary.]

  7. AussieAchmed

    Mike Baird’s biggest challenge is to detail how he will clean up what Ross Cameron, former Liberal MP for Parramatta described as the Liberal party being a life support for the lobbying industry.”

    It seems that even some Liberals agree with Ellis

  8. AussieAchmed

    New South Wales premier Mike Baird says in hindsight it was a mistake to appoint lobbyist Nick Di Girolamo to a state-owned corporation three years ago

    That’s easy to say once you’ve caught out….

  9. psyclaw

    Zoomster #1280 and #1286

    You have come up in my estimation after these 2 comments. 🙂

    As to Fran “never ever lying” she must have had an extremely open relationship with her parents as an adolescent, being prepared to acknowledge all her social “experiments” to them as she reached out into the adult world.

    Similarly as an adult she apparently has never been put into a position where someone inappropriately enquired into her private life, or into a position where it was in her own self protective interests to lie.

    I’m sure I can pose a few questions to her whereby she will certainly lie in response, or at least not give a full honest answer.

    Used appropriately as social beings, lying is an important social skill, and essential to good mental health.

  10. AussieAchmed

    Abbott has lied so much it’s difficult to keep up.

    -ABC lie
    -pensions lie
    -health budget lie
    -education budget lie

  11. Boerwar

    AA

    Yet another Liberal got caught.

    Yet another Liberal ‘mistake’…

  12. dave

    Lots of wishful thinking from Ellis. As usual.

    But I’d settle for the damage to spread further to the federal tories.

    Labor, get party reform sorted out and kick the stuffing out of the tories as the gory details are trotted out in public –

    [ Hockey and Abbott may not have long as MPs if, as is likely, Di Girolamo gave money to their campaigns, money stolen, that is, from the New South Wales taxpayer. The vultures are circling, the jackals detect the smell of blood on the wind, and the Liberal Party itself may not survive the year.

    For the Liberal Party is the Lobbyists’ Party, it has no other moral purpose any more. It is there to give contracts to mates who build the airport, and the roads to and from it, and positions to crooks like Di Girolamo who kick back money to it.

    ….All self-righteousness has gone from the Liberals’ armoury now and it was the biggest weapon they had.]

  13. Boerwar

    Tainted votes as far as the eye can see.

  14. dave

    AussieAchmed@1303

    Abbott has lied so much it’s difficult to keep up.

    -ABC lie
    -pensions lie
    -health budget lie
    -education budget lie

    Deliberate tactic IMO.

  15. Acerbic Conehead

    The sandgropers had WA Inc.

    With Australian Water Holdings, it’s more like NSW Sink.

  16. psyclaw

    Poroti

    Thanks for the further arm grabbing info.

    Clearly it is a tool of jerks to assert themselves.

    Speaking of jerks, I heard new Premier Baird being questioned about whether as a fellow Manly-ite he like Abbott wears budgie smugglers. He avowed that he would continue with board shorts.

    This raised the question for me as to why a 50+ year old would wear budgies and proudly display his wearing of them.

    I can conceive of quite a few reasons all pointing to an insecure, delusional or narcissistic personality that might lead him to happily display himself. I cannot think of any other PM, Premier, or national leader of any organisation who is as keen as Abbott is to display his equipment ……. not even Don Dunstan.

    Typical of a jerk.

  17. zoomster

    ….as for fran’s willingness to use a student’s disadvantage to her benefit, knowing that doing so would further isolate him from his peers, that behaviour is so contemptible that I almost can’t conceive of any adult indulging in it.

    It’s the kind of mindset which sees people gleefully turning friends and family into the Thought Police. For their own good, mind you.

  18. zoomster

    On arm grabbing: one of the phenomena which I noted very early in my political career was how becoming a candidate seemed to do away with certain boundaries for people.

    One of these is touching.

    When I’m not a candidate, people behave normally towards me when it comes to this. As soon as I become one, it becomes a matter of course that people will start grabbing me by the sleeve, slapping me on the back, etc — often complete strangers, often with no other form of contact.

    It’s as if assuming a public position turns off certain rules about personal space.

  19. confessions

    [When I’m not a candidate, people behave normally towards me when it comes to this. As soon as I become one, it becomes a matter of course that people will start grabbing me by the sleeve, slapping me on the back, etc — often complete strangers, often with no other form of contact.]

    I saw this with a local state MP here when we flew up to Perth last week. At the airport women kissed and hugged him, men came from everywhere to shake his hand and backslap him.

    I’ve never seen anything like it when it comes to an ordinary person.

  20. leone

    Tony Abbott denies meeting Australian Water Holdings chief executive Nick Di Girolamo –
    Well, not exactly. Abbott says he has never had any ‘formal’ meetings with Nick, but might have met him at the odd party, but he really wouldn’t remember, because he meets so many people and there can be lots at those functions and blah blah blah…
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-denies-meeting-australian-water-holdings-chief-executive-nick-di-girolamo-20140417-zqvyf.html

    But…But…. it was only a few months ago that Abbott and Brandis and a horde of other government identities were telling us that claiming expenses for attending weddings and parties and football games was legitimate because they did business at those sort of events.

    Now Abbott would have us believe he doesn’t remember who he meets at functions because they are not ‘formal’ business meetings.

    You can’t have it both ways chaps.

  21. guytaur

    On a cheerful note. Being here can be helping your mental health. U would not be surprised to find similar results in other age groups.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2607790/UUsing-internet-lower-depression-rate-elderly-30-cent.html

  22. Socrates

    Afternoon all. Guytaur I am not surprised at that finding on mental health and internet use. Where it is a blog or forum that involves interaction with people with similar interests, I think that is definitely uplifting. Election night coverage of conservative defeats also helps 🙂

    That being said, I am pleasantly surprised to read Joe Hockey is considering attacking the housing market killer and tax revenue cancer that is negative gearing. It will take years to eliminate this distortion but a start is needed. Cap it at the average house price in each capital city please Joe.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-16/extended-interview-with-saul-eslake-and-harley-dale/5396076

    I am a little surprised that the Liberals would face up to this one. Reform is badly needed, but many shonky real estate and loan salesmen will complain.

  23. confessions

    [Abbott says he has never had any ‘formal’ meetings with Nick, but might have met him at the odd party]

    Yes leone, with Abbott you must always search out the qualifier in his words.

  24. Socrates

    Achmed
    [New South Wales premier Mike Baird says in hindsight it was a mistake to appoint lobbyist Nick Di Girolamo to a state-owned corporation three years ago]
    I don’t suppose Baird has given any thought to taking action to stop such appointments? Otherwise it is fairly certain we will be having this debate again in three years time.

  25. briefly

    confessions, I’ve become fascinated by the animated wind map you posted here a couple of weeks ago (also as below). In particular, I’ve been watching the breakdown of the trade winds in the Pacific. These have been displaced by intrusions of westerly flows, starting from the very far west of the Pacific and now reaching to about 175E. The trade winds in both hemispheres have more or less collapsed in the western Pacific and have both shifted and weakened in the eastern Pacific.

    The inter-related disruption of easterly trade winds and the onset of westerly air-flows is said to be critical in the development of El Nino events. These developments are becoming more becoming more extensive and complex on almost a daily basis. Observers say this process is important in the transfer of warm water from the West Pacific to the East and the displacement of cool waters with warm water in the tropical subsurface water column in the Eastern Pacific. The rise in sea surface temperatures in the equatorial Eastern Pacific is the defining characteristic of an El Nino event.

    We will soon get a new El Nino forecast from the climate agencies here and in North America on the likelihood of an El Nino event this year. At the time of the most recent forecast (8 April) the westerly flows that had occurred in February and March had abated and while the Sea Surface Temp anomaly had increased, it had not reached the threshold for El Nino. It will be very interesting to see if the resurgence of westerly winds has lifted the SST anomaly in the Central and Eastern Pacific or not.

    http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-184.97,3.30,413

  26. Socrates

    [Abbott says he has never had any ‘formal’ meetings with Nick, but might have met him at the odd party]
    The dark lord taught his young apprentice well.

  27. lizzie

    I’m not familiar with the Jesuits except from the term “jesuitical”, but wasn’t Tony Abbott schooled by them? Or did he just have lots of practice in avoiding penances after confession?

    *( often lowercase ) practicing casuistry or equivocation; using subtle or oversubtle reasoning; crafty; sly; intriguing.

  28. confessions

    briefly:

    I know, I can’t stop looking at it either. It’s the first thing I go to when I turn the computer on in the mornings. I find it fascinating.

    I thought I read somewhere the other day that we were forecast to have an El Nino year.

  29. guytaur

    @7NewsBrisbane: Protesters at South Bank are waving indigenous flags and signs. #7Royal

    Wow Newman has done well first protest of the Royal Tour

  30. briefly

    [1322
    confessions

    briefly:

    I know, I can’t stop looking at it either. It’s the first thing I go to when I turn the computer on in the mornings. I find it fascinating.

    I thought I read somewhere the other day that we were forecast to have an El Nino year.]

    The most recent BOM statement assigned a 70% probability to an El Nino. If one eventuates, it will have to develop in the period through to the end of May. So we are watching the evolution of the future, up-dated every 3 hours. It’s remarkable.

  31. briefly

    The BOM has some really good material on El Nino, starting here:

    http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/glossary/elnino.shtml

  32. briefly

    [1316….Socrates]

    Negative gearing is a scam by which 85% of taxpayers finance the property speculation of the remaining 15%. NG does nothing to add to housing supply and distorts housing prices to the detriment of all those buyers who cannot claim interest expenses as a tax deduction.

    It should be abolished, not merely capped. It’s bad policy and should be scrapped.

  33. Player One

    lizzie@1299

    http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2014/04/19/abbotts-assault-the-abc/1397829600#.U1HSBVWSyKJ

    Quentin Dempster defending the ABC.


    The ABC board seems to be on the backfoot and reeling. The public broadcasters are now working on their survival strategies as hostility intensifies before the May 13 budget, expected to deliver them drastic funding cuts despite promises to the contrary.

    Good article. Quentin Dempster is one of the few people left at the ABC worth listening to.

    But the reality is that the ABC only have themselves to blame. To bastardize the famous speech by Martin Niemöller:

    [ First they came for the ALP, and the ABC did not speak out — Because they were not a member of the ALP.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and the ABC did not speak out — Because they were not a member of a Trade Union.

    Then they came for the Journalists, and the ABC did not speak out — Because they had no interest in Journalism any more.

    Then they came for the ABC — and there was no one left to speak for them. ]

  34. kezza2

    In defence of Fran

    From what Fran has divulged of her personal journey through life, she became aware at a very young age of the artifice of adults.

    And, it seems to me, she set herself a strict code of conduct to countervail what she saw as reprehensible behaviour in almost everyone with whom she came into contact.

    And, it also seems to me, she learned the art of compromise without compromising her fundamental code.

    Her membership of the Greens is testament to that compromise.

    Sure, I don’t agree with some things Fran has to say, but it doesn’t mean that I think she’s lying about anything.

    I would have loved a teacher like Fran, who didn’t compromise her standards, but who took the time to explain to me what is was about my own behaviour that was holding me back from reaching my potential.

    Therefore, Fran using the inability of a autistic child to lie to discover the order of a chain of events – to no detrimental effect on the child, in fact she stated that it didn’t isolate him from his peers – is not taking benefit from disadvantage.

    Knowing Fran’s propensity to be long-winded on any topic – according to some on here, I prefer to see it as covering all the nuanced bases as much as possible – then I can’t imagine Fran, after having discovered whatever was at the heart of the problem, not then explaining to the kid/s involved the consequences of their actions.

    And not just the consequences of their actions in terms of school rules, but the personal consequences of their actions.

    Fran is a teacher who commands respect and she follows through. I had one (one only) teacher like her in primary school. A teacher who respected all of us, as people, not kids who could be bullied by an adult whenever they pleased, but who fundamentally wanted all of us to be the best we could possibly be.

    Because she (that one primary teacher) led by example, held no fear or favour, and expected the same in return, she held us in the palm of her hand. She was only bright light in an otherwise tortured childhood. She showed that it was okay to be honest, truthful, compassionate and caring. And overall that we could trust her.

    I see Fran like that. And I reckon the kids she teaches are very lucky to have her in their life.

  35. kezza2

    psyclaw
    [Used appropriately as social beings, lying is an important social skill, and essential to good mental health.]

    Really? How?

    And, for that matter, what are these mysterious questions that people will lie about, every time? What are they?

  36. rossmcg

    Socrates and briefly

    I will be very surprised if hockey more than tinkers at the edges with tax lurks for property investment
    The real estate spivs and shysters and their clients would be up in arms. They still talk about when Keating abolished negative gearing. And lie about the impact it had.
    My view is that investors should have a choice. Either they claim a deduction for the cost of borrowing for the investment or they get the 50 pet cent CGT benefit when they sell. One or the other.
    The CGT concession was not one of costello’s better ideas, and he had a few dud ones

  37. Steve777

    Social lying: the unspoken agreement is I’ll accept your story / persona and I accept yours.

  38. Socrates

    Briefly 1326

    I completely agree on negstive gearing. The only problem is that the practice has grown to be such a large percentage of the housing market that an instant cancellation would crash the market and leave many with negative equity, possibly causing a recession. But there are ways to phase it out wothout wrecking things in the short term and capping is one. I am open to other suggestions.

  39. kezza2

    [Steve777
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 1:30 pm | PERMALINK
    Social lying: the unspoken agreement is I’ll accept your story / persona and I accept yours.]

    But how is that essential to good mental health?

    It’s a contradiction in terms.

    Are you saying we all know we’re lying about the facade we present to the world so that’s acceptable except when we have to reconcile about who we can trust, when we can’t trust ourselves?

    It’s a bullshit contract, isn’t it.

  40. Socrates

    Rossmcg

    I agree real reform of negative gearing would be surprising. Labor under Rudd and Gillard was too captured by the property spivs to do it. I had assumed Hockey would be too. However to my surprise Hockey has flagged this before. So he would be breaking a promise if he did not do it.
    http://australianpropertyforum.com/topic/9884736/1/

  41. zoomster

    kezza

    [Therefore, Fran using the inability of a autistic child to lie to discover the order of a chain of events – to no detrimental effect on the child, in fact she stated that it didn’t isolate him from his peers – is not taking benefit from disadvantage.]

    That’s incredibly naive.

    Of course she is benefitting from his disadvantage. Instead of trying to work out for herself what had happened, she took a shortcut, exploiting the child’s disadvantage to save herself work.

    And of course it would isolate him from his peers. Are you seriously asserting that – just because the rest of the class accepted that what he said was truthful, and nodded earnestly when fran said he shouldn’t be blamed – that they didn’t resent him for it?

    If so, you have an incredibly naive view of human nature, and in particular, child nature.

    As for showing that its OK to be compassionate and caring, I don’t see fran modelling that at all. Compassion involves understanding – the kind of understanding that doesn’t put children in awkward situations to begin with, and the kind of understanding that doesn’t brand a child because they told a lie to get out of trouble.

    If anything, over the past couple of days, fran has shown herself remarkably unsympathetic towards normal human failings.

  42. Socrates

    Lizzie 1321

    Yes Abbott was schooled by the jesuits in Sydney, as was Pyne in Adelaide. Even when I was a practising catholic, I found the jesuit order a contradiction. OTOH they were very intellectual, committed to education, and analytical. Conversely, they were also expert at using convoluted logic to justify obscure theology.

    I think this quote sums them up:
    [Rule 13 of Ignatius’s Rules for Thinking with the Church said: “That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity … if [the Church] shall have defined anything to be black which to our eyes appears to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be black.”]
    And this
    [Because of the military background of Ignatius and the members’ willingness to accept orders anywhere in the world and to live in extreme conditions where required, the opening lines of this founding document would declare that the Society of Jesus was founded for “whoever desires to serve as a soldier of God”]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus

    So they are dogmatic and argumentative. Remind you of anyone?

  43. briefly

    [1332
    Socrates

    Briefly 1326

    I completely agree on negstive gearing. The only problem is that the practice has grown to be such a large percentage of the housing market that an instant cancellation would crash the market..]

    It’s true that the Sydney market at the the moment is dominated by investor demand, though other markets are much less subject to this influence. Property markets are being supported by very low interest rates; and conversely, when real interest rates rise again (as they must) then property will weaken.

    If there is a good time to abandon NG, surely it is when the markets are otherwise well-supported. Abolition of NG, in itself, is not going to change the value equations in property. Real property prices ALWAYS move inversely over time with real interest rates. As long as rates remain low, property will hold up.

    In fact, the only strong argument in favour of increasing interest rates at the moment is the fear of a bubble in Sydney property. An increase in rates would certainly quell demand for real estate everywhere, including in Sydney. But such a rise would also be very harmful to the economy in other ways. If Sydney property prices stopped rising, interest rates could certainly be kept on hold for longer, to the undoubted benefit of the wider economy.

    Restraining speculative demand for Sydney property by cancelling NG would be one way of supporting the economic adjustment that we have to have.

  44. briefly

    1332
    Socrates

    Of course, if real housing costs could be reduced over time, this would have a very positive effect on economic growth. Households could spend less on housing and have more of their incomes available for saving (and, axiomatically, investment) and to spend on other goods and services.

  45. Steve777

    Actually my 1331 should have read:

    “Social lying: the unspoken agreement is I’ll accept your story / persona and you accept mine”.

  46. kezza2

    zoomster

    I knew you would disagree with me, and my defence of Fran, feeble though it is.

    I’m not naive at all.

    Sure, I agree with you that Fran took a shortcut – but I disagree that she exploited the child. In fact, I’m sure that Fran would have gone to great lengths to make sure that before using his innate honesty the child would not suffer any further than he already had.

    I may not be a teacher, but my sister is. And I’ve been in and round enough staff rooms to listen to the rank dishonesty of teachers regarding children.

    It quite frankly disgusted me to hear the way teachers patronise and make fun of kids in their care, out of their earshot, of course. What dishonesty. As if it was par for the course to use adulthood as a measure of superiority.

    I’ve raised two kids. Two boys. I’ve always been honest with them. Brutally so, at times. I haven’t lied to them about anything. I may even be guilty of giving too much information at times for their tender years. In return, they know they can trust me.

    I grew up in a family of Catholic liars. Where our parents lied to us and we lied straight back at ’em. The difference was the power structure. Our parents lied with impunity, we were punished, physically, by the dictum “spare the rod and spoil the child.”

    I think you misunderstand where Fran comes from. Fran would take the time, as she does here, to explain in great detail why she thinks a certain way, why it matters, and how it affects the kids in her care. I doubt very much she would leave an autistic child to his or her own devices to struggle against the shit that kids give each other.

    And I’m pretty sure she understands why kids lie to get out of trouble.

    If anything, Fran has shown over the past couple of days that she is remarkably sympathetic towards normal human failings – and that she tries her best to provide an antidote in a world of deceit. Where even the PM of our country lies at every turn and you can’t trust a word he says.

    The fish rots from the head down. And Fran is trying to stop that wherever she can. I applaud her.

    It doesn’t mean I don’t applaud you. I think you are a remarkable person as well. You’re probably one of the more decent teachers about. I think you argue brilliantly, and I can’t even make a dent in your philosophy – even when I think I’m right. You have rhetoric down to a fine art. Well done politician.

    But, I think you’re being a bit too defensive of your own lying to kids.

  47. AussieAchmed

    Negative gearing could be limited to a max number of properties, 2-3.

    That would keep the “mum and dad” investors in the market

  48. WeWantPaul

    [Negative gearing could be limited to a max number of properties, 2-3.

    That would keep the “mum and dad” investors in the market]

    1 should be more than enough.

  49. Socrates

    AA

    Negative gearing needs to be limited to more than just a number of properties. Even then, I would suggest a limit of 1, not 2 or 3. It is axiomatic that the more properties there are negative geared, the more people are renting not owning their own home, unless we end up with a lot of empty houses.

    I think a limit on the maximum value of properties that may be negative geared is essential. Without it house price inflation continues to be fed. People being financially rewarded for owning million dollar properties does nothing to help provide homes for the poor. We should set a per property limit of no more than the average house price in each city. Above that you should not get a deduction. Then the limit should be fixed in absolute not real dollars, i.e. Not indexed. Finally NG should only apply to new houses, not turnover of existing stock. That way over time inflation will make NG less attractive, and take price pressure out of the housing market.

    To those who say they are retirees reliant on NG income I say, invest in something else. Unless you are buying a new property your investment is not creating jobs or more housing. You are just getting an income thanks to a tax break that should not exist. Invest in something that builds the nation, not turns a generation into people of no fixed abode.

  50. confessions

    briefly:

    A 70% chance? That’s a pretty strong indication.

    On the wind site, I’m going to really enjoy it when winter comes, watching those cold fronts develop and intensify. 🙂

  51. AussieAchmed

    Back in days before there was superannuation guarantee it was one of the few ways that the baby boomers could look at making some money for retirement.

    Limit the number of properties to one, and be prepared to have them drawing a pension.

    GENY/X all whine about the baby boomers being a burden on them, yet want to limit the financial independence that would could with a couple of investment properties.

    (I find it all a bit incongorous the same GENY/X whinging about boomers being a burden would still parents/grandparents who are boomers)

  52. deblonay

    A Us Colonel(Ret’d) looks at the insane statement of a US diplomat who wants to send 150.000 US troops into the Ukraine to confront the Russians…He sees it as both mad and undoable as the US no longer can marshall such forces,after the disasters of Afg’stan and Iraq.and American people will not support such a moive

    One wonders if some US policy makers need help for their mental conditions and their lack of understanding of the new world emerging,as US power declines

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/18/ground-troops-to-ukraine-really-mr-ambassador/
    _________________

  53. AussieAchmed

    Slash the “mum and dad” investment in property by stopping negative gearing, then end up with them claiming the pension.

    Can’t have it both ways.

    Because of my investments in property I will not be claiming the pension which I would have had to do if I hadn’t invested.

    Which would you prefer?

  54. zoomster

    kezza

    fair enough, but..

    [But, I think you’re being a bit too defensive of your own lying to kids.]

    I went into teaching determined to be absolutely honest. It caused me no end of trouble.

    “Are the reports written yet, miss?”

    “Yes.”

    “For all subjects?”

    “Yes.”

    Result — a class of kids who not only don’t work in your class, but don’t work in any other class, either.

    The kids, being cheerfully honest, tell all the teachers that you’re the one who told them the reports have been written.

    Disaster.

    Now, in the days of computers, I can more honestly say that I’ve written mine, but that they’re in draft form….

    I don’t lie to kids if I can possibly help it. But I certainly wouldn’t have any trouble justifying why I was doing it if I did.

  55. briefly

    [1335….zoomster]

    The discussion of honesty is an interesting one. We’re thinking about the ethics of making truthful/untruthful statements. It is obviously not difficult to imagine circumstances when “ethical” purposes would be served by making untrue statements. The example given by Fran has been classed as a form of “saving deceit” in philosophy.

    Along with the continuum of true/untrue statements, we should also consider some other dimensions, including for example issues of “trust/mistrust”, “duty”, “propriety/impropriety”, keeping/breaking “promises”, acting in “good faith/bad faith” to think of just a few. How do acts of dishonesty compare to acts of violence? What distinguishes good violence from bad violence?

    There are many ways to evaluate these ideas. Are they important only insofar as they affect others or are they important in themselves in all cases? Is state of mind or intention important in determining whether acts are ethical or not?

    For mine, the discussion here today raises far more questions than it has answered.

  56. Socrates

    Achmed
    [GENY/X all whine about the baby boomers being a burden on them, yet want to limit the financial independence that would could with a couple of investment properties.]
    No they do not. The needs of babyboomers and gen x/y would both be better served by mechanisms that grow the economy as a whole, and that is not negative gearing. It ties a huge amount of our capital up revolving around buying existing properties, not building new ones or investing in projects and companies that create jobs.

    Once you remove the tax dodge for negative gearing, most property investment is exposed as a pyramid scheme promoted by a bunch of fee gougers. It has to stop or we wind up like the USA before the GFC.

    I do not want to see this as intergenerational warfare, any more than I want it to be class warfare. If people are saving for their retirement, invest in something productive. Leave the tax dodges alone, or don’t complain if you lose when the rort is ended.

  57. Socrates

    Have a good day all. Let us hope Hockey does some real reform. For the record I do not have a mortgage, negative geared or otherwise. I invest in two industry super funds, both balanced.

  58. kezza2

    zoomster
    [I don’t lie to kids if I can possibly help it. But I certainly wouldn’t have any trouble justifying why I was doing it if I did.]

    And therein lies the paradox.

    We demand honesty from kids when we’re not prepared to do it ourselves, but as adults we can justify dishonesty when it suits.

    You’re using the same reason kids use: I get into trouble if I tell the truth therefore I’ll lie about it.

    When does it ever end?

  59. deblonay

    The US Public doesn’t care about events in Eastern Europe
    ___________________________

    In The US Conservative Buchanan argues,that apart from a small fringe of neo-cons warlovers,the great US public and the media won’t have a bar of any conflict in Eastern Europe and deeply resent any effort to make it seem that what happens there is improtant to them

    Them American people are waking up it seems to the warmongers amongst their leadrership

    The Democrats,notably Clinton may find a new group among the Repubs.led by Sen.Rand Paul,which will take a very”isolationist” policy to the electors,a new way of thinking for the Repubs,who just might find wide support instead for a policy that departs the old military way of looking at every proble…..Clintion and her husband being among the worst of the ” Bomb everyone” school of though,,,,see Kosova et al

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/americans-dont-see-ukraine-as-their-cause/

  60. AussieAchmed

    I can only speak for myself.

    My investments have made me financially independent when I retire.

    I have provided plenty of employment in the maintenance and the renovation of the properties.

    Negative gearing is not a rort, it’s legal, approved by the ATO.

    I was one on many who supported Labor’s changes to the FBT rules to stop rorting. Liberals supported the rort. What makes you think the Liberals will stop negative gearing?

    When the main group involved are in fact the wealthy Liberal supporters.

  61. zoomster

    I do think it’s important to have ethical standards – but it’s also important to understand that human beings are fallible and that means they can’t live up to the standards they set themselves.

    As an ex-Christian, the bits of the Bible I still cherish are Jesus’ warnings about judging others – because we’re all prone to get worked up about other people’s imperfections whilst ignoring our own.

    We should all do the best we can to be the best we can be — but we should recognise that that’s a very big ask and not be too harsh with ourselves or others when that doesn’t happen.

  62. AussieAchmed

    GENY/X – and yes they do….whine and whinge about how its all the fault of baby boomers that they cannot have their McMansion with all the fruit.

  63. zoomster

    kezza

    [We demand honesty from kids when we’re not prepared to do it ourselves, but as adults we can justify dishonesty when it suits.

    You’re using the same reason kids use: I get into trouble if I tell the truth therefore I’ll lie about it.]

    Um, no, I’ve been arguing exactly the opposite – that because adults (including myself) lie to get out of trouble, then we shouldn’t be shocked when kids (with far less power to control their situation than adults) also lie to get out of trouble.

    You seem to be attributing fran’s argument – that it is unforgiveable for a child to lie – to me, when I’m arguing the opposite.

  64. psyclaw

    Kezza #1333

    “But how is that essential to good mental health?

    It’s a contradiction in terms.”

    The prefrontal cortex of the brain amongst a number of roles moderates social behaviour. It promotes appropriate inhibition, such that for example many "private" aspects of life are performed privately.

    Persons who for one reason or another, (usually damage) have a malfunctioning prefrontal cortex often become disinhibited. As a result they may perform the range of private activities publicly and are unable to practice social mores ….. they are seriously damaged goods, often a danger to themselves and others. They expose their private selves and emotions in all areas of conduct and incur social criticism and various sanctions.

    Such people put the importance of the ways in which social order is maintained into clear focus.

    One aspect relates to what we say (write) to others, and when and how we say it. So a healthy, mature individual will have numerous social skills to regulate what they say.

    Of course there is always "fuck off ….. it's none of your business" when others encroach on matters of privacy, but as a rule, except in severe circumstances the use of such a strategy will have other detrimental social consequences, and will not be conducive to well being and happiness in the long term. Anyone who uses that strategy as a matter of course will be exhibiting maladjustment, pathology.

    And similarly physical aggression instead of negotiation, if the dominant social skill in times of disagreement will also not be conducive to well being and happiness in the long term. Anyone who uses that strategy as a matter of course will also be thereby exhibiting maladjustment.

    The above examples underscore that effective, adjusted, mentally healthy persons will have numerous social skills to handle social pressures when they arise.

    And one of these skills universally practised is what we call "lying".

    As to the role of lying as young people individuate, it would be contra to normal development for an adolescent to provide all details of their normal risk taking behaviours to a nosey parent, just as it would indicate some mental issues for a parent who would ask / demand all details.

    Adjusted adolescents wisely lie to their parents in such (but not all) circumstances.

  65. kezza2

    Their was no fine line between truth and lying in my family.

    It didn’t matter if you told the truth, or told a lie. You still got the same punishment. If ever there was a way to encourage lying, then that was it.

    For instance, one day someone in the family ate a strawberry from the fridge. No one knew the significance of the strawberry.

    Suddenly we were all summonsed to the kitchen. There were eight of us, although only six of us were lined up. I was the sixth and funnily enough six years old.

    We were all asked if we’d taken the strawberry.

    We all denied it. One by one. And one by one down the line we got hit with a strap (dad’s belt). It seemed to me that as each one denied having the strawberry my parents became angrier, so much so that I thought, at six years of age, I copped an angrier belt than I otherwise would have, had I been first in line.

    Still, because no one owned up, there was a further punishment in store, for which I was grateful to be at the end of the line.

    Mum and Dad mixed a few tablespoons of salt in some water. They made the first one drink it. He vomited on the floor. They examined the entrails. And he was pronounced innocent.

    The next was made to drink the same. He vomited too. And was pronounced guilty, even though he swore he’d eaten a tomato just prior to being given the salt cure.

    The rest of us were dismissed, and we didn’t see the beating but we heard it.

    It didn’t make us tell the truth. It made us more convincing in our lying. And we never ever ate something that could be proved by vomiting.

    Thus was the Catholic way of truth serum, in our family. And my uncle was a Jesuit.

    But even he didn’t like the truth so much. Not in our family, any way.

  66. zoomster

    Just musing on the Barry O’Farrell thing – but off on a tangent….

    We seem to be back to the Golden Age thing – that there was an era in politics when these things didn’t happen, when politicians were honest and upright and that something has gone badly wrong in recent times.

    Of course, this is bull.

    In the early ’80s, we bought a run down house in a wilderness which had been laid out as a suburb a hundred years before (our house was so isolated at the time that I once went out to gather wood at night and got lost – I couldn’t see a single house light in any direction).

    Yet, within about 200 metres from our place, there was a railway station, with a regular train service.

    This intrigued me. Why would a railway end up in the middle of nowhere?

    Then I read “The Land Boomers’ – a history of early Victoria.

    In those days, of course, politicians weren’t paid. So you couldn’t even afford to go into politics unless you had monetary backing. You were either already rich, or going into politics with the certainty of becoming so.

    And one of the ways politicians took advantage of their position was to buy up land cheaply and then ensure that the railways went there.

    Absolutely blatant self interest, and the reason why, over one hundred and fifty years later, Victoria’s rail system is a mess.

    If you’d told one of these eminently respectable gentlemen that they were corrupt, they would have regarded you as mad.

  67. zoomster

    Huh! Here’s a post which puts it all better than I can (re politicians and corruption) —

    http://left-flank.org/2014/04/19/barrys-fall-anti-politics-authority-corruption/#sthash.qJrmfJ8V.KoZgNjhO.dpbs

  68. kezza2

    zoomster
    [Um, no, I’ve been arguing exactly the opposite – that because adults (including myself) lie to get out of trouble, then we shouldn’t be shocked when kids (with far less power to control their situation than adults) also lie to get out of trouble.]

    Actually, sorry, you weren’t arguing that at all. Or if you were you didn’t make any effort to clarify it. You were arguing that you, as an adult, could justify lying to get out of trouble.

    Fran didn’t argue that it is unforgivable for kids to lie (there’s your rhetoric again, others would say strawman) nor that she couldn’t understand why kids lie to get out of trouble, much less being shocked by it, she was saying how she took steps to find out the truth of a situation and then to remedy what happens when kids lie.

    There’s a difference.

  69. poroti

    deblonay

    150,000 troops to the Ukraine ? Was it General Turgidson or General Ripper’s suggestion ?

  70. poroti

    kezza2

    Dad had a fave family strawberry story about when he and his four brothers got sprung. . They figured out a cunning plant to raid the strawberry patch when grand dad wasn’t looking. Gumboots on and following exactly in the boot marks left by grand dad.
    The cunning plan fell apart because my fathers boots we quite a bit smaller. They all got busted.

  71. Fran Barlow

    Zomster

    [as for you never lying, that’s nonsense. I remember perfectly well you stating something which was untrue, providing you with the evidence that proved it was untrue, and you refusing to accept the evidence because you didn’t want to admit that you might have, er, lied.]

    That’s a serious charge, for which I will seek a citation, or an apology. Over to you.

  72. kezza2

    Oh shit, I left the arse end off the strawberry story.

    Years later, and I mean many many moons later, 50 years in fact – at the wake after mum’s funeral in 2002 – my younger brother, who was four at the time of the incident, confessed to us that he’d pinched the strawberry from the fridge.

    He’d felt guilty all those years. And my second oldest brother had carried the resentment for an ill-founded beating all those years.

    When I was 12, I copped a similar beating from my father. I had to go to school the next day and explained away the belt marks on my legs – the eyelet and buckle marks – as having been trapped in the swing.

    That wonderful teacher I told you about earlier rang my father and demanded to see him. She tore strips off him for his use of corporal punishment on his kids. And said she’d report him if he ever touched me, or any of us, again.

  73. Just Me

    [Promptly after O’Farrell’s fall, Greens MLC John Kaye put out his party’s suggestion: “All meetings between businesses seeking a favourable government decision and ministers, parliamentary secretaries, senior bureaucrats or ministerial staffers must be minuted and made publicly available,“ he said.]

    A good start, but we can do better than that:

    Unedited, high quality audio-visual recording from the moment the lobbyist rent-seeker spiv thieving scumbag humble supplicant steps into the pollie’s office to the moment they leave, with all business conducted in the official office, on the formal record (including all paperwork), for all to see any time they wish, absolutely no meetings or discussions conducted anywhere else, and not a single ‘gift’ of any kind exchanged, ever.

    There will be a few exceptions where limited redaction is justified, like matters involving personal information, particularly when related to individual victims of crime, especially children, for example.

    As to that most bogus of excuses for avoiding proper scrutiny, the old ‘commercial-in-confidence’ scam… Feck that. Straight corruption, IMHO. If you are pitching for publicly funded contracts, then it is all done in the open, (again with a few exceptions, like some military and intelligence goods and services, etc).

    But otherwise, do it all on the public record, or piss off.

  74. Just Me

    [1248
    confessions

    Also because people identify the govt as being more the leader now than in the past.]

    You sure about that? If anything I would have thought that people pay less deference to formal authority now than they ever did.

  75. Fran Barlow

    As to the substantive point Zoomster, it is true that teachers lie. I’ve met them. I have a very low opinion of those who do.

    As to children, although it is disappointing, children are by definition, learning how to be adults, including the business of negotiating boundaries with each other and adults. When there’s an appropriate moment to do so, I take the students through the issues of personal ethics and why speaking and acting “in good faith” is foundational to being a successful adult, and how disrespectful lying is to others.

  76. sprocket_

    Something for all in this tweet from Joel Fitzgibbon
    [
    @fitzhunter: Adam Bandt refuses to retract “coal is the new asbestos” comment. C Milne must now do it for him & apologise #auspol]

  77. kezza2

    [poroti
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 3:29 pm | PERMALINK
    kezza2

    Dad had a fave family strawberry story about when he and his four brothers got sprung. . They figured out a cunning plant to raid the strawberry patch when grand dad wasn’t looking. Gumboots on and following exactly in the boot marks left by grand dad.
    The cunning plan fell apart because my fathers boots we quite a bit smaller. They all got busted.]

    That’s fantastic. Just goes to show the inventiveness, or the initiative some would say, of kids.

    Kids, for all our reasoning of having every base covered, never ever think of the forensic ability of adults, especially when they’d done the self-same thing, and been caught out, as kids.

    As mum often said as we looked bewildered when caught out: I didn’t come down in the last shower!

  78. mexicanbeemer

    On the issue of people claiming to never lie usually raises a red flag as for some reason i have noticed that people who claim to never lie or claim to be nice or claim to hate backstabbers tend to be the first person to do so.

    I find the best people never tell you what they are but rather show it by their actions.

    The word lie is a bit like corruption a bit overused

  79. kezza2

    psyclaw @ 1358

    Now that you think you’ve described me as a mal-functioning person, aw bugger off, how about you answer the questions I posed.

    That you think:

    1) lying is essential to mental well-being; and
    2) there are secret questions that everyone will lie about

  80. Fran Barlow

    Thanks for the defence Kezza

    You’re quite right. In the case of this boy, he was isolated when I first encountered him. I made his attribute of honesty a virtue, and celebrated it. And although the mischievous were occasionally miffed the others who were doing the right thing were glad that they couldn’t be falsely accused, and learned a practical lesson about honesty. They thought he was brave and clever when really he was indifferent to them and clever.

    He was indifferent to me as well — that was his condition — but the mischievous students knew that I had a special interest in him and were very careful to avoid bullying him because they knew he would speak up and teachers would believe him.

    One of the things good teachers do is celebrate the gifts children have, whether these are academic, sporting or social. This boy had a prodigious left-brain intelligence and yet treated everyone with respect — as if they were his intellectual and social equals. That impressed most of them, including those who found him seriously eccentric.

  81. kezza2

    [mexicanbeemer
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 3:45 pm | PERMALINK
    On the issue of people claiming to never lie usually raises a red flag as for some reason i have noticed that people who claim to never lie or claim to be nice or claim to hate backstabbers tend to be the first person to do so.]

    Yes, I agree, for myself.

    I claimed never to have lied to my kids. I didn’t say about anyone else. In fact, I have claimed to be a liar extraordinaire. Who to trust, in my case?

    And I totally agree that people who accuse other people of stuff, generally are guilty of same.

    It’s hilarious, isn’t it.

  82. mexicanbeemer

    Kezza2

    Very much so, the joys of the human condition.

  83. deblonay

    Poroti re General Turdgidson and Dr Stranglove
    ____________________________
    I get your point but they are still about in Washington and dying(“??)to get their fingers on that Nucleur Button

    Lovely question on your part I got the message
    \Actually several US commenators have made the same point,,,but the talk by Buchanan of US bluster which being unadle to go beyond that …is very different from the old Colw War days
    An article below looks at the fury of the Hawkes in the Repub Party at Sen Rand Paul and his call for a withdrawal from the US self-apponted role as world policeman ,,,yet there is evidence that he has much support on the street,where ordinary Americans are sick of wars ,especially in the M East

    Militarists like McCain,the miltary establishment,the military-industrial complex,the zionists,all who want to continue warmongering polices are against him…but as Rand Paul said…”nobody supports me but the American People”

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/peter-king-and-the-hawks-hysterical-attacks/

  84. kezza2

    Fran

    You’re very welcome.

    As I said, you remind me of the only teacher I ever had who respected us, and individually who thought I was any good at anything, at all.

    She gave me hope. Even if it was for two years only, when I was 11 and 12 years of age. I wish she’d been there when I was 13.

    I could have done with a lot more like her, like you, in my life.

    But at least she showed me there was a way to get round the hypocrisy in the world. Even though it took me another 20+ years to discover what she was trying to teach me.

  85. deblonay

    Poroti …..

    John Pilger writes today in Counterpunch of what he calls “The Strangelove effect”
    In simple terms he says the warmongering Neo-cons would be prepared to risk a nucleur war with Russia and China to preserve US hegemony,and will even pretend that such a nucleur war would be “limited” in effect
    a terrible thought
    Oddly Craig Paul Roberts,,also Reagan’
    ‘s Tres and a solid Republican now says that the USA menaces the human race an amzing statemen

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/18/the-strangelove-effect/t………. from one ,who was also Editor of the Wall Street Journal
    _______________________

  86. mari

    Kezza2

    I was in a state of shock when I read you comment about the beating you father gave his children and then you were supposed to lie to your teacher. I was one of those fortunate children who was brought up strictly but fairly, my dad did not believe a man should hit a girl as “he did not know his own strength ” so any corporate punishment was left to my mother for both my sister and myself and boy could she use the strap or anything else she could find in a hurry, think I would rather have dad as he was so conscience of his self imposed edict he should not hit a girl. In hindsight was not fair to my mother as I loved her dearly but adored my dad . BTW We did not have much but had an almost idyllic childhood brought on a farm .

  87. deblonay

    POROTI’

    ‘PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS AND HIS STATEMENT THAT THE USA MENACES ALL HUMANITY WITH IT;S INTERVENTIONIST MILITARY POLICIES AND THE THREAT OF NUCLEUR WAR
    ________
    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/04/13/washington-humanitys-worst-enemy-paul-craig-roberts/

  88. poroti

    deblonay

    The weird thing is General Ripper may be responsible for the Fluoride nutters. Lordy an article in The Onion caused book burnings of Harry Potter.
    Look how similar Ripper’s tone is compared to the anti fluoridation nuts.

    [General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk… ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children’s ice cream.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: (very nervous) Lord, Jack.
    General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I… no, no. I don’t, Jack.

    General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It’s incredibly obvious, isn’t it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That’s the way your hard-core Commie works……………..

    General Jack D. Ripper: Fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face. ]

  89. psyclaw

    Kezza #1362

    “Fran didn’t argue that it is unforgivable for kids to lie (there’s your rhetoric again, others would say strawman) nor that she couldn’t understand why kids lie to get out of trouble, much less being shocked by it, she was saying how she took steps to find out the truth of a situation and then to remedy what happens when kids lie.”

    Well here is a cut and paste of what Fran said, and it was this that led to my comments about lying.

    “For me, lying is a very grave offence — far worse than many other human failings. When someone appears to be lying to me, it’s hard for me to give weight to other virtues they may have.”

    It seems to me that what you say Fran said, is far removed from her actual sentiments expressed. Her’s is a view about lying that goes very close to actually saying that which you said (in your first few words quoted) that Fran is not saying ie that “lying is unforgivable”.

    Her last 13 words especially seem to me to indicate a harsh perspective about lying. It suggests a view “lie to me mate and it’s all over ….. you’re now crap in my book!”

    As I wrote earlier, this strong attitude belies the usefulness and widespread occurrence of lying as a social tool.

    Once again, I distinguish pathological lying and exploitative lying from lying-as-a-social-tool.

  90. victoria

    Kezza2

    Like mari i am a little shocked as to the extent of abuse experienced by you and your siblings. So sorry that you had to deal with that. Parents should be protecting their children from harm.

  91. kezza2

    mari

    I wasn’t expected to lie to the teacher. I was expected to ‘save face’ for the family.

    There was absolutely no way I was going to dob on my parents’ treatment of us. No way.

    When the teacher called me out, ostensibly to ask a maths question (was that a deceit on her behalf?) she asked me what had happened. And I refused to answer. I lied to the other kids, but not to her.

    I told her I couldn’t tell her what happened.

    She asked if I would get into trouble again if I told her. And I whispered: Yes.

    I was in terrible fear when I saw my father at the schoolroom door, later that day, and saw the teacher wagging her finger at him.

    After he went, she told me not to be afraid any longer. I was petrified. But dad no longer spoke to me at home. For a year or more.

    She wasn’t a lay teacher. She was a nun. I think in the same brand as Mary MacKillop. Not afraid of men and their hypocrisy.

  92. zoomster

    Just in case there’s a false impression developing here, I value honesty very very highly. It’s just that I recognise that humans are fallible, and that there are scales of dishonesty.

  93. kezza2

    psyclaw
    [Once again, I distinguish pathological lying and exploitative lying from lying-as-a-social-tool.]

    Nice justification for your stance, but once again, you have avoided the questions.

    That you think:

    1) lying is essential to mental well-being; and
    2) there are secret questions that everyone will lie about

    So tell us about lying being essential to mental well being, and the secret questions that you say everyone will lie about.

    It’s not too hard, is it.

  94. Fran Barlow

    Psyclaw

    [As to Fran “never ever lying” she must have had an extremely open relationship with her parents as an adolescent, being prepared to acknowledge all her social “experiments” to them as she reached out into the adult world.]

    Let’s be clear. I don’t claim never to have lied. As a child, I was as inclined and disinclined to lie as anyone else. Lying to my parents was something I trembled at doing, because that was a big rule in my family. I often passed on doing things precisely so as to avoid having to lie about it later. But outside the family, I often lied — to teachers, other adults other children. I did learn though that the benefits of lying were much less impressive than I’d imagined when I’d felt inclined to do so.

    By the time I was 16 though, I’d worked out the rule that “less is more”. The less you tell about yourself, the less likely that you will feel a need to make stuff up. I became good at declining comment and deflecting questions from my parents. I recall saying to my mother at about this time that she had better accept that I was no longer a child and that my personal space needed to be respected.

    My attitude to lying sharpened when I became an activist. It struck me that my public commentary was not merely about my needs and feelings, but about my role in shaping a better world — one built on equality and justice — and therefore one where I was obliged to assist others in being their better selves in the hope that they would reciprocate. Yet how could I be trusted if I weren’t honest? Who would stare back at me in the mirror each morning if I had misrepresented my ideas or conduct? My politics from 1977 onwards moved sharply left and my tolerance for deceit in others entirely vanished. Deceit, it seemed to me, had a political character — and was a weapon of the ruling class. In a society where lies were tolerated, the principal beneficiaries were likely to be the rich.

    [Similarly as an adult she apparently has never been put into a position where someone inappropriately enquired into her private life, or into a position where it was in her own self protective interests to lie.]

    It is possible both to decline to answer, and to avoid situations where one is likely to fell under pressure to lie. Lying is corrosive of identity and ethics. Refusal to lie also tends to foreclose acts that a willing liar might rationalise away.

    [I’m sure I can pose a few questions to her whereby she will certainly lie in response, or at least not give a full honest answer.]

    You probably can pose questions that I will decline to answer. That’s not lying however.

    [Used appropriately as social beings, lying is an important social skill, and essential to good mental health.]

    I disagree. It’s certainly a skill, and can be useful, but one’s successes built on lies are like ashes in one’s mouth. Each lie makes the journey to insight into oneself harder, isolates one from one’s friends and peers and invites others you trust to deceive you. The tears may not arrive immediately, but arrive they will.

    There are as I said above, settings where lying is compelled, where irremediable harm to compelling interests would attend truth-telling. Responsibility for this falls upon those whose failures caused the threat. Outside of such considerations, we who favour human wellbeing are all bound, IMO, to work for authentic community — by definition a setting where none need feel inclined to lie.

  95. zoomster

    and kezza’s response to psyclaw is a CLASSIC strawman…

  96. mari

    Kezza 2 1385

    I don’t care whether is is to “save face” for the family or what, like Victoria just said I am in a state of shock, that a father can treat his kids like that. My OH and I shared any punishment of our kids(at my insistence) but rarely resorted hitting, but occasionally a smack. The worst punishment the kids reckoned was when they were fighting and I made them hug each other and say sorry to each other Absolutely hated that 😀

    BTW THey did the same thing with their kids!

  97. lizzie

    psychlaw

    [Once again, I distinguish pathological lying and exploitative lying from lying-as-a-social-tool.]

    Isn’t lying-as-a-social-tool what we call white lies? Not really “lying”.

    When you have to answer questions like
    “Does my bum look big in this?”
    “Do I look good in purple?”
    “I hope you liked the secondhand jumper I gave you for Christmas.”

  98. DisplayName

    kezza, I believe psyclaw professionally deals with the aftermath of abuse. Which – while bringing that up may be some kind of fallacious appeal to authority (by me) – may help with understanding :).

  99. kezza2

    [zoomster
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 4:35 pm | PERMALINK
    Just in case there’s a false impression developing here, I value honesty very very highly. It’s just that I recognise that humans are fallible, and that there are scales of dishonesty.]

    I am not accusing you of dishonesty. I wouldn’t be a teacher for quids because it’s too fucking hard to maintain consistency.

    I just think in Fran’s case, she has managed that. What the rest of us can’t do. But I’m not saying she’s perfect, either.

    As for scales of dishonesty, that’s the problem, isn’t it. That scales are taken for reality, instead of accepting that honesty is very difficult.

    I got fired from a job for being too honest; for sticking up for underlings who were being treated woefully. I went to court about it. For unfair dismissal. Because I prepared my own case, I was accused by the tribunal of having a lawyer assisting me, even though I had not. That I was too smart to have brokered my own defence. I lost the case on a technicality, one that I had pointed out to the court – in my favour – yet was turned round to rout me.

    I’m sick to death of honesty, quite honestly.

  100. kezza2

    vic

    Don’t cry for me, and the way we were treated. We weren’t unique. That was the Catholic way in our neck of the woods, back then.

    All of us. There were only some very few families that didn’t dish out the same punishments. Perversely we felt sorry for them, that their parents didn’t care enough to belt the living daylights out of them.

    The main difference in treatment was size of family. Those that had few kids were treated well. Those who had large families, were treated with the rod.

    Our parents didn’t tell us what financial or other woes they had. When it all got too much, and there were too many mouths to feed and clothe (because of their own actions) they had to take it out on someone, and that was us.

    It didn’t make us very good citizens.

  101. DisplayName

    It may be useful to distinguish (from the norm) situations which are adversarial, i.e. where others may (potentially) work against you.

  102. Fran Barlow

    Kezza

    [I got fired from a job for being too honest; for sticking up for underlings who were being treated woefully. ]

    That’s terrible of course but the reason for doing right is that it is right. If you happen to get a tangible personal benefit from it or avoid a personal loss, that is great, but what none can take away from you for doing right is proof to yourself of your value system and its integrity under challenge.

    That is worth having, IMO.

  103. mari

    BTW

    In case people think I am remembering through “rose coloured glasses” my childhood. My mum caught me lying when I was about 7 and put a bit of curry on my tongue, to this day can’t eat curry but suddenly became very honest or a better liar, take your choice 😀

  104. Just Me

    Children have to learn about lying, in all its forms and degrees. That it happens and why, and how and when to both deal with it in others and do it themselves.

    A core skill in negotiating your way through our sometimes deceitful and dangerous human world.

  105. DisplayName

    mari, if you have trouble eating curry then you need to eat more to acclimatise yourself ;).

  106. Player One

    kezza2@1371


    Kids, for all our reasoning of having every base covered, never ever think of the forensic ability of adults, especially when they’d done the self-same thing, and been caught out, as kids.

    As mum often said as we looked bewildered when caught out: I didn’t come down in the last shower!

    And this is why it is completely pointless to argue about whether or not it is correct to lie to children. While we can all agree it is undesirable, sometimes it is simply necessary, to avoid worse consequences.

    Children do not have the necessary cognitive ability to correctly assess why telling the truth is better than lying, and no amount of “explaining” or “punishment” is going to help them understand it until they do. All you can do is condition their behaviour until they can draw the correct conclusions themselves. For my money, developing that ability is actually the main thing that differentiates a child from an adult.

    People who insist on treating young children as if they were just younger versions of mature, sophisticated adults are fooling themselves.

    Young children’s brains are yet to form some of the fundamental wiring they need to understand this kind of thing. Even most teenagers don’t have it yet.

    Or some adults, as this debate demonstrates.

  107. confessions

    [You sure about that? ]

    Pretty much. The increasingly presidential nature of Australian politics has been apparent for a while now.

  108. zoomster

    My mother had this annoying thing where she said she could tell if we were lying because our eyes were spinning.

    I was always puzzled, because I knew I wasn’t lying, but she was adamant that my eyes were spinning…I didn’t doubt HER honesty for a second!

  109. kezza2

    [zoomster
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 4:41 pm | PERMALINK
    and kezza’s response to psyclaw is a CLASSIC strawman…]

    And just because you have no defence for you own lying (to get out of trouble) you attack me. Well done.

    I’ve asked psyclaw many times now to tell me how lying is ESSENTIAL to mental well-being, and what are the secret questions that everyone lies about.

    He’s been unable to answer either query over a longish period of time.

    Instead he puts up a construction of what I think of what Fran actually thinks.

    Fran’s here now. She can stick up for herself. And psyclaw, if he had any balls at all, would actually answer my queries. He doesn’t need you to use your offended self to stick up for him.

    [DisplayName
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 4:44 pm | PERMALINK
    kezza, I believe psyclaw professionally deals with the aftermath of abuse. Which – while bringing that up may be some kind of fallacious appeal to authority (by me) – may help with understanding]

    Once again, if he actually deals with the aftermath of abuse, he’s not very good at recognising it, and secondly, shouldn’t he be able to answer a question instead of continuing to dancing round it, and trying to justify an appeal to the dishonesty in all of us, as a reasonable defence.

  110. Leroy Lynch

    https://twitter.com/Leroy_Lynch/status/457412938039451648

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/top-end-deserts-giles-and-party/story-e6frgczx-1226889455541#
    [Top End deserts Giles and party
    AMOS AIKMAN The Australian April 19, 2014 12:00AM

    SUPPORT has crashed for the Northern Territory’s Country Liberal Party, which stands to lose crucial seats across Darwin and its majority at the election.

    Chief Minister Adam Giles and his deputy are both on the nose with voters.

    Independent polling obtained exclusively by The Weekend Australian shows the CLP government would be ejected after barely half a term if an election were held now, retaining barely half the 16 seats it won in 2012.

    Labor stands to gain several seats, but probably not enough to achieve a majority of 13, meaning the balance of power in the next parliament could be held by independents.

    The phone poll by Telereach of 881 respondents in the greater Darwin region on Wednesday shows the CLP’s primary vote has plummeted from about 53 per cent after the 2012 election to 38 per cent now.

    Counting only voters with no political leaning, the CLP’s primary vote is 33 per cent. Labor’s primary vote remains stable at 37 per cent, with about 10 per cent support for the Greens.

    On a two-party-preferred basis, the CLP’s vote has sunk 10 per cent from 57 per cent in 2012 to 47 per cent. The swing is the same as that recorded at a by-election in the greater Darwin region last weekend. If this was reflected at the next election, at least three cabinet ministers and one backbencher would lose their seats.]
    More in the article. Note its just the urban areas, rural polling is hard to do in the NT.

  111. NathanA

    Lizzie 1391

    In a general sense, I think that lying to protect another person is often considered a virtuous act in our society. Lying to protect or advantage oneself, is not.

  112. mari

    DisplayName

    Yes I know but still can’t except the very mildest(and I mean mild) currys

  113. psyclaw

    Lizzie

    Yes, your examples are certainly often referred to as white lies.

    “White lies” is really a euphemism for acceptable lies.

    Of course whether or not a lie is an “acceptable” lie is a very subjective judgement in some areas of behaviour and we could chew over examples for days.

    One classic area which every parent faces is to do with the emerging sexual behaviour of their kids.

    On one end of the scale, some parents want to (inappropriately) know in fine detail what their adolescent child is up to as the adolescent years progress, whilst at the other end some certainly do not wish to know even generally, let alone in detail.

    Those in the former category are likely to be told lies, and as a general rule I think those lying kids behaving appropriately.

  114. zoomster

    What is about curry?

    If I told someone I didn’t like chicken, for example, people wouldn’t suddenly start pushing chicken recipes upon me, or suggesting that if I ate more chicken I’d change my mind.

    But if I tell someone I don’t like curry, all of a sudden there’s a concerted effort made to convert me — with all the fervour usually only associated with religion.

    It mystifies me.

  115. confessions

    [Independent polling obtained exclusively by The Weekend Australian shows the CLP government would be ejected after barely half a term if an election were held now, retaining barely half the 16 seats it won in 2012.]

    Not surprising given the upheaval the NT govt has had recently with some of its MPs.

  116. Fran Barlow

    P1

    I acknowledged earlier that lying by children has a different character than lying amongst adults. Your developmental point is a fair one.

    That said, children do need to start exploring the ethical implications of lying from at least early high school.

  117. zoomster

    kezza

    [And just because you have no defence for you own lying (to get out of trouble) you attack me.]

    Er, what?

    I don’t need to defend my own lying. I accept that I sometimes do lie, just like everyone else on God’s planet, and I don’t beat myself up about it.

    [I’ve asked psyclaw many times now to tell me how lying is ESSENTIAL to mental well-being, and what are the secret questions that everyone lies about.]

    Fine. But you then used that to avoid psyclaw’s assertion – the same one I made – that you had misunderstood fran’s position.

  118. DisplayName

    I see that it was a mistake to bring it up.

    Not referring to the curry :P.

  119. psyclaw

    Kezza #1373

    “Now that you think you’ve described me as a mal-functioning person, aw bugger off, how about you answer the questions I posed.”

    ???????????????????????

  120. zoomster

    …and, actually, I never said that I lied to get out of trouble, but that I understood why children did, by putting myself in their position (which, I made clear, is a different position to that of an adult).

    I’m now trying to think of a situation where I lied to get out of trouble, but (in fact) it’s usually the reverse — I get into trouble because I’m too honest!

    (The classic case of that is my husband. He got pulled up recently because one of the headlights wasn’t working. “What, again?” he said…)

  121. mari

    Zoomster 1409

    Agree with you, I am constantly told what I am missing????

  122. DisplayName

    mari, being unable to feel anything with your mouth? 🙂

  123. kezza2

    [psyclaw
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 5:11 pm | PERMALINK
    Kezza #1373

    “Now that you think you’ve described me as a mal-functioning person, aw bugger off, how about you answer the questions I posed.”

    ???????????????????????]

    Oh, puhleese.

    Stop trying to get out of it.

    You made assertions that you could make people lie by asking a set of questions.

    I keep asking you about these questions, these mysterious secret questions that make people lie, and you refuse to say what they are. Instead, you obfuscate, muck round, will do anything other than ask them. So, once again, what are these questions that you say will make people lie, every time.

    Ask me.

    As as confirmed liar, I will tell you the truth.

    And then tell me, why you consider lying to be essential to mental well-being, when I am living proof that it is not the case.

    And don’t bother trying to tell me that I’m the exception that proves the rule.

  124. psyclaw

    Just Me #1399

    Player One #1401

    You both have expressed the subtleties about lying with insight.

    Kezza

    Earlier this year you yelled at me that I had dried up testicles. Now you say I have none.

    You may be right.

  125. lizzie

    kezza

    From what I have read today, your family’s physical punishments reminded me of many descriptions I have read (fictional, but probably based on the authors’ own experiences) of the methods used by those we might call “bible bashers” or “fundamental christians”. Perhaps your parents were simply acting according to their generation, not because they were Catholics.

    I write from complete ignorance of your parents, of course.

  126. psyclaw

    Kezza

    The “secret questions” are really no secret.

    They are any questions that go to the core of what any individual wants to keep private.

    Some aspects of our private life we share with those close to us.

    Some aspects we share with no-one.

  127. kezza2

    [zoomster
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 5:13 pm | PERMALINK
    …and, actually, I never said that I lied to get out of trouble, but that I understood why children did, by putting myself in their position (which, I made clear, is a different position to that of an adult).]

    Well, actually, you did.

    You said you had to end up lying to your class(es) because telling them the truth got you into trouble – with your peers – because the buggers you told the truth to told the other teachers. And none of you could control them once they realised the reports had been done for the year.

    And that’s when you started lying to them, to prevent getting into trouble, so that you, and your peers, could prevent shit happening in your classrooms.

  128. zoomster

    mari

    the other thing that happens – and this is based on several experiences – is that, several days before a dinner party, the hostess will ring up and ask if there’s anything we don’t eat.

    Terribly relieved to be spared an embarrassing evening, I say, “Curry.”

    There’s always a tiny pause, and then: “But it’s only a very mild one…”

    Seriously.

  129. zoomster

    kezza

    no, actually, I didn’t. I said that being honest about when the reports were written caused an awkward situation. I didn’t then say, “so from then on I lied.” I have described how I answer that question now.

  130. zoomster

    …of course, schools have (quite sensibly) solved the whole problem by starting work on the next year’s subjects in the last few weeks of last term, which means teachers can now tell their students with complete honesty when the reports have been written!

  131. victoria

    Kezza2

    I was raised a catholic and my father never hit any of us. My mother smacked me a couple of times when i called her horrible names cos i was being a smartarse. In fact, we were,a little cheeky cos we used to tease our parents, especially my mum whose grasp of English made us laugh.

  132. lizzie

    Sorry to butt in with politics, but I agree that there will be many problems to solve in the future because of out treatment of the “boat people”.

    [Evans made a mess of some things as a politician, but his role in the Cambodian peace process qualifies him as one of this country’s finest foreign ministers. The way that process unfolded is a reminder of what will be required if there is ever to be a genuine regional protection framework.

    As the diplomat Ken Berry, who was on Evans’ staff at the time, wrote in Cambodia: From Red to Blue – Australia’s Initiative for Peace, the preconditions for a successful operation include that the plan be “conceptually sound and appropriately detailed”, with clear and achievable goals, adequate resources and the support of all the key players.
    Abbott’s stop-the-boats strategy fails the first and last of these preconditions.

    Yes, the boats have stopped coming. But at some point there will be a reckoning on the price that has been paid, including the damage done to those in offshore detention and the leverage lost when it comes to encouraging others to behave like model international citizens.

    Evans implied as much when he launched Carr’s diary, queried Carr’s depiction of Kevin Rudd’s PNG solution as a masterstroke and lamented that Carr was too easy on a Sri Lankan regime that has never made an atrocity-accountability commitment it hasn’t breached,
    Said Evans: “We could all understand the need for a deterrent dimension to stop the deaths at sea of boat people, but I for one think that this needed to be accompanied by a huge diplomatic effort in the region to address the problem at source, which we never saw.” And, tragically, are not seeing now.]

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-real-price-of-stopping-the-boats-20140417-zqvzl.html#ixzz2zJbwyCnX

  133. mari

    Display Nmae

    I am not entering into that 🙂

  134. mari

    Sorry Display Name 1428

  135. victoria

    Sorry to bring up the BOF subject again, but i really liked this comment under Mike Secombe’s piece today

    [We can speculate why Mr O’Farrell decided not to register a gift valued at $3,000 so soon after winning an election on the promise of ‘cleaning up’ NSW, but pretty clearly it wasn’t because he didn’t actually receive it. Whatever distance he may have thought he’d put between himself and the giver clearly wasn’t enough three years later. And it’s not that the now ex-Premier hadn’t been all biblical about Mr Di Girolamo in denying he knew him either, he’d done it on at least three previous occasions. All very Easter really, not that anyone would confuse Nicky Di G with Jesus Christ, except maybe some thing he could do with turning water in wine, miraculously opening doors, and having many pieces of silver just turn up into various coffers. Rather, he turned out more like that Judas character, not with a kiss, but a kiss and tell, in the form of a note from the new Premier.

    No need to send over a horses head, was there?

    And then there’s the party hacks,like the Eeyore of Australian political commentary Gerard Henderson, who usually drones on with a few historical notes about Bob Santamaria or other irrelevance, but this time went the full rabid bull terrier, snapped his chain on national TV and accused a highly respected journalist of just having “fun and games” at ICAC. Somehow implying that reporting Barry’s ‘memory lapse’ was tantamount to playing political paintball with the odd live round.

    The swamp that’s NSW political politics sees no one, no matter how clean they are going in, come out looking anything but very soiled. It’s a pity Mr O’Farrell got so mired in it, but he really did choose which way to go himself.

    Maybe Barry didn’t see the sign in the Hundred Acre Wood: “Eeyore’s Gloomy Place: Rather Boggy and Sad”

    Maybe Gerard should have warned him? Too late now.]

  136. Fran Barlow

    Zoomster

    […of course, schools have (quite sensibly) solved the whole problem by starting work on the next year’s subjects in the last few weeks of last term, which means teachers can now tell their students with complete honesty when the reports have been written!]

    And equally, I tell my junior students that I’m still working with the relevant HT and YA to finalise reports (which is true) and that I’m noting their current work so that I can send advice and work samples home to parents who may not be able to attend PT nights (also true).

  137. kezza2

    [psyclaw
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 5:24 pm | PERMALINK
    Kezza

    The “secret questions” are really no secret.

    They are any questions that go to the core of what any individual wants to keep private.

    Some aspects of our private life we share with those close to us.

    Some aspects we share with no-one.]

    Oh, okay, perhaps I’m not au fait with what is public and what is private. So would you have the decency to say what these questions are? Or not?

    It’s as if you belong to some special club where you have a secret and to belong to the club, I have to guess what your secret is, or to perform some sort of secret thing.

    Come on, give over. What are these questions. I can’t for a minute think of one. So tell me.

    In the meantime, ruminate on this.

    Elizabeth Farrelly was wont to describe the failings of the members of the church as not failings of the institution itself, but the failings of its members. Therefore, hence and notwithstanding, the church was still the sacred, secretive, scented idealogical form she always thought it to be.

    That those who couldn’t live up to it rules and regulations and rites were mere failings of the individuals themselves, not the esteemed institution.

    When I was a kid, two of my next-door-neighbours and I decided to form a club. We only wanted ourselves as members. We drew up a rudimentary constitution – of course we wanted to make a rule that would immediately make sure no one else could perform, after all we were a year older than the others.

    We pondered this for days, and finally came up with the rule that you had to be able to eat a banana in 11 seconds to be eligible to join the club.

    We thought we could do it, so we made our younger brothers and sisters try. And none of them could it. It was all over red rover, until one of them wanted to see us do it.

    None of us could. There was no club because none of us could measure up. That’s the value of play, I reckon. It was also the value of making a club where no one could abide by the rules, let alone join.

    This made me think about a church, my church, Catholicism, where nobody ever measured up.

    By my rules where we had to disband a club before it even started, the institution of Church should never have been instituted.

    There endeth the lesson.

  138. mari

    Zoomster 1423

    Yes I relate to that, has also happened to me. Then a special dinner is made for me while the rest woof into a strong curry and I feel pretty silly

  139. confessions

    victoria:

    There’s no need to apologise for raising the subject of BOF or ICAC, surely.

  140. zoomster

    fran

    as I said earlier, I now say that of course I have written the reports, but as they’re on my laptop I can change them at any time. Why, I could log in right now and alter what I’ve written….

    And that’s 100% true.

    (Fortunately I worked out how to do reports on the computer long before any other teacher I knew, so I’ve been able to respond in this way from quite early in my teaching career!)

  141. dave

    Vic –

    Could be some sparks flying next time Mike Secombe and henderson are on Insiders together.

  142. psyclaw

    Victoria

    MSecombe’s piece is well written.

    It seems that he’s suggesting that O’F recognised immediately he got the wine, that it (undesirably) linked him to Girolamo, and that if he registered it, it would put the link on the public record.

    So he kept “mum” about it hoping it would fade into insignificance. It didn’t.

  143. bemused

    zoomster@1423

    mari

    the other thing that happens – and this is based on several experiences – is that, several days before a dinner party, the hostess will ring up and ask if there’s anything we don’t eat.

    Terribly relieved to be spared an embarrassing evening, I say, “Curry.”

    There’s always a tiny pause, and then: “But it’s only a very mild one…”

    Seriously.

    You really need to try a Thai Massaman Curry.
    You will eat it and not realise it is a curry and absolutely delicious.
    The curry you give to people who don’t like curry.

  144. victoria

    confessions

    I know some bludgers earlier in the thread were bored of the BOF topic. Hence the apology

  145. kezza2

    [zoomster
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 5:27 pm | PERMALINK
    kezza

    no, actually, I didn’t. I said that being honest about when the reports were written caused an awkward situation. I didn’t then say, “so from then on I lied.” I have described how I answer that question now.]

    See, I can never ever win with you. You said you started out determined to be honest with your pupils.

    You then said you got into trouble for telling the truth (with your peers, because of the students).

    You then said you got round this trouble by telling the pupils that you had only made draft reports.

    I didn’t say you continued to tell lies to your students, I suggested that you used the same excuse for telling lies (and it was a lie to say you had made a draft rather than a final report): to get out of trouble.

    That’s all. I never suggested for a moment that you continued to do so.

  146. zoomster

    bemused

    you were one of the curryphiles I had in mind!

  147. bemused

    Kezza2

    What you endured was not normal parental discipline but sheer sadism. I feel very sorry for you.

    When I was in primary school, the Catholic kids 2 doors down the street had the reverse of your situation.

    The nuns at their school were the sadists and absolutely beat the crap out of the kids. Finally, the parents had had enough and the kids were withdrawn from the Catholic School and joined us at the State School where corporal punishment existed, but was restrained within reasonable bounds.

  148. mari

    Bemused1438

    True?

    I always though s Malaysian curry was the strongest, I worked with a Malaysian person once and you could almost see the steam rising out of the currys. I didn’t partake which was a bit hard as I was his boss

  149. Just Me

    [1405
    Leroy Lynch

    https://twitter.com/Leroy_Lynch/status/457412938039451648

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/top-end-deserts-giles-and-party/story-e6frgczx-1226889455541#

    Top End deserts Giles and party
    AMOS AIKMAN The Australian April 19, 2014 12:00AM

    SUPPORT has crashed for the Northern Territory’s Country Liberal Party, which stands to lose crucial seats across Darwin and its majority at the election.

    Chief Minister Adam Giles and his deputy are both on the nose with voters.]

    This poll was just of urban electorates, but I doubt support for the CLP in rural seats is generally faring much better. All before the end of their first term.

  150. zoomster

    kezza

    you got your timelines mixed up.

    The first year I answered my students honestly, and got in trouble.

    That wasn’t when I told them I had drafted reports. That was in after years, and it was perfectly true, because (as I just outlined in my post to fran) I worked out how to do them on the computer.

    What I didn’t answer – at all – was the question about what other teachers were doing.

  151. lizzie

    If a guest says they “don’t eat onions (or curry)” I work our a menu in which the disliked items don’t appear. When one guest was a disabled lady who could only eat with a spoon, the meal I served was a risotto. I like my guests to enjoy their meal without embarrassment.

  152. poroti

    bemused

    Thai Curry’s are to die for . This link is to the late Colonel Ian Khuntilanont-Philpott’s great site for Thai recipes.

    http://www.chetbacon.com/thai-html/thai.html

    As a sampler here is his recipe for Gaeng khiao wan kai (green chicken curry).
    http://www.chetbacon.com/thai-html/Gaeng_khiao_wan_kai.htm

  153. confessions

    victoria:

    Invariably when someone complains about being sick of reading continued comments about an subject they are bored with, they’ll get hit with an even more boring, pointless subject.

  154. confessions

    Just Me:

    Even from way down here, the NT govt looks to be mired in chaos and dysfunction.

  155. victoria

    pysclaw

    Indeed

  156. bemused

    zoomster@1441

    bemused

    you were one of the curryphiles I had in mind!

    I wouldn’t really say that about me.
    I am OK with most Indian Curries but not the really fiercely hot ones that cause you to experience ‘the ring of fire’ the following day.

    My favourites are Beef Rendang (Malaysian and Indonesian) and Thai Massaman. These are relatively mild, particularly the Massaman which is hardly a curry at all.

    The recipes for Rendang seem to vary so an Indonesian Rendang will taste rather different to the Malaysian version and there are probably variations from region to region.

    Highly recommended and enjoyed by my 4yo grand daughter from a quite early age.

  157. psyclaw

    Kezza, because one main self-protective areas of “social skill” lying is to protect one’s privacy, then it is very much an individual matter. Privacy means different things to different people.

    However on the assumption that you are not just game playing, I will bother to give you an example which as a feminist I would have thought you would already know.

    A very small proportion of adult sexual assaults are reported. A still smaller proportion of victims agree to press charges.

    The reason ……. privacy. It is often referred to as further abuse by the legal process. Here are some examples.

    Victims may not want their prior sexual history trotted out. They may not want others to know of the fact that they were “silly enough” to get raped. They may not want their aged parents to find out, and be worried. They may not want their partner to find out. They may not want their kids to find out. Or there acquaintances or workmates. If a teacher, they may not want the schoolkids to find out.

    Since lying about these things in court has serious consequences, their only option is not to proceed.

    However in their private life, victims will rightly lie the very same things, about what may have happened, for the very same reasons they did not report or legally proceed with the matter.

    I assume you have read Lizzie’s comment about “white lies”. By and large society accepts white lies, but they are in fact lies, and they serve a social purpose.

  158. victoria

    confessions

    Tragic I know, but I find fhe BOF saga fascinating. 😀

  159. Just Me

    [1402
    confessions

    Pretty much. The increasingly presidential nature of Australian politics has been apparent for a while now.]

    Fair point.

  160. bemused

    mari@1443

    Bemused1438

    True?

    I always though s Malaysian curry was the strongest, I worked with a Malaysian person once and you could almost see the steam rising out of the currys. I didn’t partake which was a bit hard as I was his boss

    There may be some very hot Malaysian curries, but I have not encountered any. Of course Malaysia has an Indian minority who probably do the hot curries.

  161. poroti

    confessions

    [the NT govt looks to be mired in chaos and dysfunction.]
    The whole lot of them could fit in a mini bus and a faction in a phone booth so it is natural that it be “volatile”.

  162. Acerbic Conehead

    I noticed Mike Seccombe this morning referring to the so-called “Sunshine Act” in the US, which “compel(s) all medical professionals to publicly declare individual payments…greater than $10…on the basis that sunlight (is) the best disinfectant”.

    This reminded me of the old vampire movies where Dracula had to curtail his nefarious activities once the sun came up.

    So sing along with Count Tony (carrying through with his knights and dames routine) as he laments any scrutiny on his government’s modus operandi.

    Cue: “Sunshine on my Shoulders” by John Denver.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybeke7_d1zE

    Sunshine on my scheming is so crappy
    Sunshine on my lies can make me cry
    Sunshine on AWH doesn’t look so lovely
    Sunshine friggin’ always shrinks my pie
    :- (
    If on everyday I could con you
    T’would be on a slack media I’d depend
    I’d have RC’s just into the lefties
    And a wind-up notice to ICAC I’d send
    :- (
    Sunshine is like a cross to Dracula
    Sunshine is like kryptonite to Superman
    Sunshine means no on-water operations
    Sunshine means on news can’t slap a ban
    :- (
    If I couldn’t doctor terms of reference
    I’d run the risk of the truth will out
    Without Rupe’s support and a cowed Auntie
    Guided democracy would be down the spout
    :- (
    Sunshine is like garlic to a vampire
    Sunshine, to our interests, an antidote
    Sunshine means we can’t crap on willy-nilly
    Sunshine friggin’ always is a joke
    Sunshine never ever floats my boat…

  163. bemused

    poroti@1447

    bemused

    Thai Curry’s are to die for . This link is to the late Colonel Ian Khuntilanont-Philpott’s great site for Thai recipes.

    http://www.chetbacon.com/thai-html/thai.html

    As a sampler here is his recipe for Gaeng khiao wan kai (green chicken curry).
    http://www.chetbacon.com/thai-html/Gaeng_khiao_wan_kai.htm

    Agree.

    I have tried quite a number but singled out the Massaman as particularly mild. So mild you could confidently give it to a non-curry eater.

  164. kezza2

    vic

    You sound like you had a good childhood, and you never had to fear your dad. Mum always used dad as a weapon, unless she did it herself.

    It didn’t make any of us hate mum, but we certainly hated dad.

    Possibly because it was a totally unfair physical confrontation. Mum was such a dot, in size.

    Mum changed after she had my two younger siblings. They never got belted. Never even got smacked. I like to think that that was when she started to become ‘liberated.’

    Dad never tried to beat me again until I was 17. So Sister Annette’s threat lasted for five years. By then, I was home from boarding school, used to being independent, and not afraid of him in terms of the law, although afraid that his anger might turn physical.

    Once I grabbed a broom to defend myself, yelling that I would the police. He stopped. In family folklore that was the time I became a witch. You know, broomstick.

    You don’t stop loving your dad. You start to understand them. My poor old dad had to look after his family from the age of 13. And he did it to the best of his ability for 70 years. His mother and his four siblings, and then his wife and family and almost 40 grandkids. He never understood feeble females.

  165. psyclaw

    Dave #1436

    It’d be interesting to be a fly on the wall as they enter the studio for Insiders, as they wait for the show to begin, and as they exit.

    During the usual guest interview I guess they at least pretend to be studiously attentive to what’s going on ….. far easier for Secombe than to actually look Gerard or Piers in the eye (not that I think Gerard would actually look up and out …. he seems to be almost in a foetal position on many Sundays, and staring downwards).

  166. confessions

    victoria:

    It is indeed fascinating. And there’s still more of all this yet to play out!

  167. confessions

    poroti:

    Yeah, but this lot really, really do appear chaotic and dysfunctional!

  168. kezza2

    psyclaw

    Yeah, I thought once I had drawn you out, it had to have something to do with sexual activity or proclivity.

    And this is the basis of all lying.

    The most basic bodily function, after breathing and evacuation of rubbish, it all boils down to what we humans privately think about sex.

    If we weren’t so lied to about sexual activity then it might become less an evil, something to lie about, if adults weren’t so obsessed with it.

    While my younger sister and brother missed out on the luxury of physical assault, they weren’t so lucky with the next nun at our primary school.

    There they were assaulted by a nun obsessed with sexuality. They had to put their heads on the desk, surrounded by their arms – and no peeking – and to raise a finger if they’d had impure thoughts.

    When one child bravely asked what constituted an impure thought, she told them in graphic detail. And if they raised a finger, she ostracised them.

    What a way to get kids to concentrate.

    I mean what is it to you about what anybody else thinks about sex? Why would I lie if you asked if I masturbated, for instance? Or fantasised about having sex with my mother or father or brother or sister? I could say yes or no. And you wouldn’t believe me, one way or the other. I could be lying or telling the truth. How would you know?

    If I asked you if you fantasised having sex with children, and you said No, would I have to assume you were telling the truth or telling a lie. It’s a fucking stupid question.

    You’re in a no-win situation. So what’s the bloody point of it. It doesn’t give you insight into anything, unless it’s an insight into your own sordid imagination.

  169. poroti

    bemused

    The Green is my curry of choice for introducing peeps to spicy food.
    Another fantastic recipe is the Sri Lankan Kukul Mas dish. This is a mild recipe . Normally they will require 20+ hot chillie pods but the spice list makes for some amazing smells and flavours.

    [Roasted Curry Powder:
    1 tablespoon uncooked rice
    4 tablespoons coriander seeds
    2 tablespoons cumin seeds
    2 tablespoons fennel seeds
    2-inch (5-cm) cinnamon stick
    1/2 teaspoon fenugreek seeds
    1 teaspoon black peppercorns
    1 teaspoon black mustard seeds
    1 teaspoon turmeric powder
    5 cardamom pods, shelled
    5 cloves
    2-inch (5-cm) piece pandanus (optional)
    2 sprigs curry leaves]
    http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/05/s-h-fernandos-sri-lankan-chicken-curry.html

  170. zoomster

    But why do I have to like curry? Why can’t I just not eat it?

  171. Just Me

    [1449
    confessions
    Just Me:

    Even from way down here, the NT govt looks to be mired in chaos and dysfunction.]

    They certainly are now. 😀

    [“For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?”]

    Particularly pleased that Dave Tollner is on the nose. Thoroughly deserved.

  172. Just Me

    [1456
    poroti

    >confessions

    >the NT govt looks to be mired in chaos and dysfunction.

    The whole lot of them could fit in a mini bus and a faction in a phone booth so it is natural that it be “volatile”.]

    Ah, the joys of a small pond. 🙂

  173. Diogenes

    Teachers much prefer dissimulation to outright lying. Most of the report cards they write are masterpieces of dissimulation, which they have become expert at to avoid telling the truth.

  174. Fran Barlow

    Kezza

    [When one child bravely asked what constituted an impure thought, she told them in graphic detail. And if they raised a finger, she ostracised them.]

    They might have responded that until that moment, they hadn’t thought of that, but they were now concerned that the nun was putting impure thoughts into their heads.

    😉

  175. Just Me

    [1289
    AussieAchmed

    The Abbott lie that pensions would not be touched is compounded by the very fact that his pension, nor that of all polticians, including $275,000 a year Hockey, is not asset tested, is not means tested and they don’t have to wait until 70yrs old. Abbott will have a pension of over $300,000 per year

    These are the people who are making the decision that you will work until 70yr old and that your assets, that is the home you live in, will be used to assess how much they can reduce your pension.

    {Plus a similar post by zoidlord yesterday.} ]

    Some pigs are more equal than others.

  176. zoomster

    Diog

    indeed. I had some truly shattering experiences after telling the truth to parents. Strangely, I thought that was what they wanted…

    Being charming and smiling a lot was a much safer option.

  177. Tom the first and best

    1465

    In case Mirabella persuades the government to have you deported to India?

  178. Diogenes

    z

    [indeed. I had some truly shattering experiences after telling the truth to parents. Strangely, I thought that was what they wanted…

    Being charming and smiling a lot was a much safer option.]

    It has to be said that I have the same problem as a doctor.

  179. lefty e

    Princeton study concludes the US is no longer a democracy: more accurately categorised as an oligarchy.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy

  180. confessions

    [Particularly pleased that Dave Tollner is on the nose. Thoroughly deserved.]

    Agreed.

  181. confessions

    zoomster:

    The best part about being able to cook is that you can eat whatever the hell you like.

  182. poroti

    Just Me

    Edit needed.

    [Ah, the joys of a small pond puddle. :)]

    That said , my time in Darwin and the NT remains one of life’s best EVA times. A testament of my love of the NT is my name of the Wisdom Bar’s “Wall of Wisdom” . 🙂

  183. Diogenes

    z

    It can be really hard to tell how much “truth” any person wants. As TS Eliot said;

    “Humankind cannot bear very much reality.”

  184. bemused

    poroti@1464

    bemused

    The Green is my curry of choice for introducing peeps to spicy food.
    Another fantastic recipe is the Sri Lankan Kukul Mas dish. This is a mild recipe . Normally they will require 20+ hot chillie pods but the spice list makes for some amazing smells and flavours.
    —-

    Ah, poroti, you are obviously much more into it than I am.

    I usually cheat by using a packet mix.

    I was thinking you would be more into haggis from your Scots roots and maybe a Hangi from your NZ background. 😀

  185. bemused

    zoomster@1465

    But why do I have to like curry? Why can’t I just not eat it?

    You could say that about any food.
    You are just missing out on something enjoyable.

  186. kezza2

    Fran
    [They might have responded that until that moment, they hadn’t thought of that, but they were now concerned that the nun was putting impure thoughts into their heads.]

    Exactly what happened. Previously sheltered children were now becoming promiscuous.

    I had a thought it was to do with making more children available (wrenched away from <16 yo wenches) to be adopted by good Christian families.

    Why were so many good Catholic families unblessed by children? Aversion to sex? Infertility? Money-making?

    A strange thing for a church to be involved in child-trafficking. But they were.

  187. lizzie

    But I thought that Giles’ lot just won a mini election. Now it seems that was an outlier.

  188. lizzie

    Diogenes

    I felt sorry for the doctors who were trying desperately to pretend to my OH that his condition might improve. Above his head I nodded, and smiled, and said “I understand”, just to put them out of their misery.

  189. bemused

    Diogenes@1468

    Teachers much prefer dissimulation to outright lying. Most of the report cards they write are masterpieces of dissimulation, which they have become expert at to avoid telling the truth.

    It was all clarified for me in the Blues Brothers where Elwood (I think) says: “I didn’t lie… I just… bullshitted.”

    So, no need to lie… just bullshit a bit. 😆

  190. zoomster

    Diog

    along the same lines, I once heard someone on the radio say that rationalisation was more important to survival than sex!

  191. zoomster

    bemused

    but what if I simply don’t like it…which is what happens to be the truth?

  192. sceptic

    1402
    confessions

    Pretty much. The increasingly presidential nature of Australian politics has been apparent for a while now.

    I blame lazy journalist more content to focus on personalities rather than looking into policy & encouraging discourse. Continuation of the age of the selfie & celebrity.
    They treat everything like a football match …. the BOF saga included

  193. DisplayName

    zoom
    [but what if I simply don’t like it …]
    An inglorious end to any friendship with curryphiles that have just discoevered this fact?

  194. psyclaw

    Kezza

    Don’t kid yourself.

    You didn’t “draw me out”.

    Nor is the lying I am referring to only about sexual matters.

    I chose the sexual assault stats and further abuse of victims by the legal system because they constitute a well known area where on the stand, victims would like to not answer the questions or lie, but the consequences of lying are severe such that they just decide that their ongoing privacy is more important than having the offender put on trial.

    There are many areas of human frailty where the probability of lies being told is high.

    A psychologist who beats his own kids, a lawyer who once stole a car (joy ride), a minister of religion who assaults his wife, a policeman who is an alcoholic, a pokie addicted employee who pilfers from the boss ……. in an appropriate circumstance all will deny their actions and lie. Here the cost of honesty might just be too high.

    The list goes on …… and despite your narrow perspective, these are not sexual matters, and you don’t need to be a member of the “secret question club” to be aware of them.

  195. bemused

    zoomster@1486

    bemused

    but what if I simply don’t like it…which is what happens to be the truth?

    There are numerous curries.
    You are rejecting all on the basis of one bad experience.
    Your choice.

  196. zoidlord

    The Cake Is a Lie!

  197. kezza2

    It’s interesting to me the amount of Proddo (Protestant) families who adopted a second child, after the first natural birth.

    That’s where the vast bulk of the proceeds of the misdeeds of young Catholic girls ended up.

    And it was no different in my sister’s child’s case.

    Were the Protestant women too proud to push for the second time. Or too overcome by giving birth or having sex to go at it again.

    Why did so many of them adopt other women’s children when they could so easily have had their own?

    Or, what was the cause of infertility in so many Proddo women?

    The only Catholic women I knew who didn’t have their own children were because of 1st cousin marriages. And they deliberately didn’t conceive because of genetics, but adopted kids.

    No wonder the parliament has been overtaken by the Catholics in Australian politics. Too contumely to procreate their own, the Proddos took in the Catholic cuckoo children. And just look what they’ve done.

    The poor old Catholic children, the interlopers consumed the Proddo diet of lying. And they, having taught their adopted children to lie so grandly, do so without flinching. Just like we Catholics did.

    Liars, all of us.

    But they’re excused by the likes of psyclaw, because after all it’s just the human condition.

  198. don

    Diogenes@1468

    Teachers much prefer dissimulation to outright lying. Most of the report cards they write are masterpieces of dissimulation, which they have become expert at to avoid telling the truth.

    Never a truer word was spoken.

    I am a long term chalkie.

    As one example, you couldn’t say that a student didn’t hand in assignments – if they didn’t hand them in, then it was your business to make them do so.

    How, I have no idea, since the lash has been disallowed in the teaching profession for some time now.

    Instead, I used to say “J….. does not always hand her assignments in on time”

    In some cases, I have been waiting for twenty years for those assignments to be handed in, but I live in hope.

  199. poroti

    bemused

    Such “exotic cuisine” contact only happened after leaving Sheepens land. A proper Hangi is still one of the best meals Eva.
    A hangi in Quinceland. Totally love the address “Dead Horse Lane, Dalby, Queensland.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cci7PuvzY

  200. bemused

    don@1493

    Diogenes@1468

    Teachers much prefer dissimulation to outright lying. Most of the report cards they write are masterpieces of dissimulation, which they have become expert at to avoid telling the truth.

    Never a truer word was spoken.

    I am a long term chalkie.

    As one example, you couldn’t say that a student didn’t hand in assignments – if they didn’t hand them in, then it was your business to make them do so.

    How, I have no idea, since the lash has been disallowed in the teaching profession for some time now.

    Instead, I used to say “J….. does not always hand her assignments in on time”

    In some cases, I have been waiting for twenty years for those assignments to be handed in, but I live in hope.

    Well at least one educationalist has the answers to such problems. 😀
    http://www.frankdando.com.au/
    Check it out.
    Don’t do your work during the week? No problem, see you Saturday.

  201. don

    zoomster@1465

    But why do I have to like curry? Why can’t I just not eat it?

    Of course you don’t have to eat it.

    But just the barest hint of curry can enliven a very ordinary dish.

    I like goulash and other such stews, and I find that a small amount of curry in a dish that does not actually require it, maybe what is for example ostensibly irish stew, can add flavour without hotness.

    If you do make stews, try adding a quarter of a teaspoon of dried curry powder to a big pot of stew. It won’t make it in the least hot, but it will add flavour.

    Another good thing is to add a half teaspoon of one of the bottled curry pastes to a stew, again it does not make it hot, but it gives zing to a bland dish.

    But an eye watering curry can be a thing of beauty.

  202. kezza2

    [psyclaw
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 7:06 pm | PERMALINK
    Kezza

    Don’t kid yourself.

    You didn’t “draw me out”.

    Nor is the lying I am referring to only about sexual matters.]

    Oh, don’t kid yourself, yourself.

    Ask yourself why, so many hours after I had asked you about it, that’s all you came up with? It’s pathetic.

    You still haven’t answered my question.

    You asserted that there are some questions that always elicit a lie.

    What are they?

    Or were you lying?

    Your answer that some professions do misdeeds against a given philosophy isn’t a question. Or an answer.

    What are the actual questions.

    If you can’t give the questions, then just say so.

  203. citizen

    [George Brandis says people who say the science is settled on climate change are “ignorant and medieval”.]

    Brandis is believed also to be challenging mathematicians who state dogmatically that the square root of 9 is never 5.

    He believes that they are also ignorant and medieval, and that they need a strong lecture from Piers Ackerman on allowing free speech.

  204. bemused

    poroti@1494

    bemused

    Such “exotic cuisine” contact only happened after leaving Sheepens land. A proper Hangi is still one of the best meals Eva.
    A hangi in Quinceland. Totally love the address “Dead Horse Lane, Dalby, Queensland.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cci7PuvzY

    I was introduced to that cuisine on the picket line during the Patricks dispute.

    A bunch of huge Maori’s rocked up and put it on for all comers. I think they even fed the cops, or at least some of them.

  205. Just Me

    [1477
    poroti

    Just Me

    Edit needed.

    “Ah, the joys of a small pond puddle.” 🙂 ]

    Geez, you know how to crush a man’s dreams. 🙁

    😉

    [That said , my time in Darwin and the NT remains one of life’s best EVA times.]

    It can be a nice little puddle at times.

    Just about to hit the best time of year here, early-mid dry. I will think of you all down the southern ways, freezing, while I decide if it is cold enough to shut the front door and break out my long sleeved shirt. Happened nearly three times last dry. 😛

  206. don

    bemused@1495

    don@1493

    Diogenes@1468


    Teachers much prefer dissimulation to outright lying. Most of the report cards they write are masterpieces of dissimulation, which they have become expert at to avoid telling the truth.


    Never a truer word was spoken.

    I am a long term chalkie.

    As one example, you couldn’t say that a student didn’t hand in assignments – if they didn’t hand them in, then it was your business to make them do so.

    How, I have no idea, since the lash has been disallowed in the teaching profession for some time now.

    Instead, I used to say “J….. does not always hand her assignments in on time”

    In some cases, I have been waiting for twenty years for those assignments to be handed in, but I live in hope.


    Well at least one educationalist has the answers to such problems.
    http://www.frankdando.com.au/
    Check it out.
    Don’t do your work during the week? No problem, see you Saturday.

    I note the following:

    [Our enrolment is capped at twenty four students. With four teachers, the teacher/ pupil ratio is low, and allows for individual attention ensuring all children progress.]

    With one teacher to six students, I can make any system, no matter how stupid, work.

    The trick is to make kids love coming to your class when there are twenty or thirty of them.

    I can make that work. Enthusiasm, positive reinforcement, don’t take any bullshit, fair but strict, and kids respect you and the education they receive.

    Mostly.

  207. Just Me

    [1482
    lizzie

    But I thought that Giles’ lot just won a mini election. Now it seems that was an outlier.]

    A mini-election, followed by a mini-honeymoon. Looks statistically clean to me. 😉

  208. poroti

    bemused

    [I was introduced to that cuisine on the picket line during the Patricks dispute.]
    One of my life’s WTF? moments occurred during that dispute. When it looked like the cops were moving in I ended up in the front row in Freo locking arms with Carmen Lawrence.
    She had back then and before been slagged off to the highest by Mordor Media and I’d accepted that. I became a fan of hers because she turned up on the front line in Freo time after time in the early hours of the morning. It was cold and miserable and there woz zero meeja there but she turned up. It was also when I became Vote 1 Combet. He also turned up in the dark of the night to talk to us.

  209. poroti

    Just Me

    [Just about to hit the best time of year here, early-mid dry]
    Snap ! Love the Dry but even better when it is still green and lush.

  210. bemused

    don@1501

    bemused@1495

    don@1493


    Diogenes@1468


    Teachers much prefer dissimulation to outright lying. Most of the report cards they write are masterpieces of dissimulation, which they have become expert at to avoid telling the truth.



    Never a truer word was spoken.

    I am a long term chalkie.

    As one example, you couldn’t say that a student didn’t hand in assignments – if they didn’t hand them in, then it was your business to make them do so.

    How, I have no idea, since the lash has been disallowed in the teaching profession for some time now.

    Instead, I used to say “J….. does not always hand her assignments in on time”

    In some cases, I have been waiting for twenty years for those assignments to be handed in, but I live in hope.


    Well at least one educationalist has the answers to such problems.
    http://www.frankdando.com.au/
    Check it out.
    Don’t do your work during the week? No problem, see you Saturday.


    I note the following:


    Our enrolment is capped at twenty four students. With four teachers, the teacher/ pupil ratio is low, and allows for individual attention ensuring all children progress.


    With one teacher to six students, I can make any system, no matter how stupid, work.

    The trick is to make kids love coming to your class when there are twenty or thirty of them.

    I can make that work. Enthusiasm, positive reinforcement, don’t take any bullshit, fair but strict, and kids respect you and the education they receive.

    Mostly.
    Frank takes the recalcitrants that have been tossed out of normal schools and rehabilitates them to the point where they can successfully return to a normal school.

    This is a much better outcome than would otherwise occur.

    Focus is on lots of sport and exercise plus a limited number of core subjects.

  211. bemused

    poroti@1503

    bemused


    I was introduced to that cuisine on the picket line during the Patricks dispute.


    One of my life’s WTF? moments occurred during that dispute. When it looked like the cops were moving in I ended up in the front row in Freo locking arms with Carmen Lawrence.
    She had back then and before been slagged off to the highest by Mordor Media and I’d accepted that. I became a fan of hers because she turned up on the front line in Freo time after time in the early hours of the morning. It was cold and miserable and there woz zero meeja there but she turned up. It was also when I became Vote 1 Combet. He also turned up in the dark of the night to talk to us.

    My interesting experience on the picket line occurred when my boss rocked up to join the picket.

    I had gone there with a mate from work and we got the shock of our lives when the boss turned up, thinking we might be in some strife. Shock number 2 was when he joined us!

    You never can tell where some people stand.

  212. Steve777

    George Brandis says people who say the science is settled on climate change are “ignorant and medieval”.

    No George, people are exercising their right of free speech to tell climate change deniers that they’re talking crap. No one is saying that they are not allowed to say what they think, but they don’t have a right to be listened to in respectful silence.

  213. confessions

    [Just about to hit the best time of year here, early-mid dry]

    I always preferred the wet to the dry. Not the build up/down, but the actual wet season itself. The dry season used to play havoc with my (then undiagnosed) asthma, esp with all the fires out bush.

  214. ruawake

    Funny how Tony promised to link Defence Super to male earnings before the election, now Joe wants to remove the index for all other pensions.

    I wonder how he talks his way out of this dilemma?

  215. psyclaw

    Kezza #1497

    Noted.

    Motivation to continue dialogue: Zero

    Reason 1: Waste of time and energy

    Reason 2: Zero tolerance for personal abuse tonight

    Reason 3: More unicorns on display than even in Mod Libs repetoire.

  216. Just Me

    [A proper Hangi is still one of the best meals Eva.]

    Damn right. 🙂

    Solar ovens can do a very good imitation. Had one for a while. Did some very nice full roasts in it.

  217. poroti

    confessions

    Death to “The Build Up” . It be horrible to the max.

  218. bemused

    ruawake@1509

    Funny how Tony promised to link Defence Super to male earnings before the election, now Joe wants to remove the index for all other pensions.

    I wonder how he talks his way out of this dilemma?

    Lie?

  219. kezza2

    I recall dad and my uncle, a Jesuit priest, having a big argument about aborigines. This was in the early 90s, just after Kennett had decided that our dog kennels weren’t even free of takeover.

    Dad was furious about it. He’d found some Aboriginal artefacts, stone axes, grinding stones, etc, down at the creek, our creek. Had been ours to access for 50 years.

    He’d told me he was going to hide them, or throw them in the rubbish. I tried to convince him not to do either. But I wasn’t sure what he’d do.

    Jesuit Priest Uncle came to dinner (well, it was lunch, but anyway) and, as hysterically usual, Uncle had the only napkin – plus a ring, napkin that is.

    After a leisurely lunch, when Uncle touched his lips multiple times with the napkin, and some desultory conversation, the topic turned to terra nullius.

    Now, dad and Uncle had cleared that land with their own bare hands. Their dad, my grandad had been too ill but he’d directed his two sons to rid the land of ti-tree.

    And they did. They grubbed up, by hand, every bloody last one of the remnants of the Koowee Swamp that had invaded the 200 acres at Nar Nar Goon.

    But Uncle hadn’t lived with us, or near us, for over 35 years. He’d been in Rome, and India, and then Adelaide. Suddenly he was among us again. I innocently asked him about this spot on our land, named after him. It was four gum trees. In a triangle paddock.

    And he told me, at the luncheon table, that he’d planted them in remembrance of the true owners of the land. And he said, “I can almost see a massacre here. And it pains me to know that I have somehow been involved in depriving these people of their land.”

    Dad went ballistic. Uncle Jesuit and Dad had the biggest bloody fight I’ve ever seen. Uncle being his quiet psyclaw self against dad’s outraged righteousness.

    The single righteousness versus the multiple righteousness.
    A sight to behold.

    Dad couldn’t hit Uncle, him being a man of god and all, despite granddad having bequeathed a fifth of his property to the bloody church on Uncle’s behald, which sent our family into debt. And before we knew it, Uncle’s car was disappearing down the driveway.

    He never darkened our doorway again. Dad had a long bloody memory. But we saw Uncle heaps of times before he died. Dad just didn’t know about it.

  220. confessions

    poroti:

    The build up is THE worst time of the year in the tropics. I would never live up north again. Ever.

  221. Everything

    [psyclaw
    …..Reason 3: More unicorns on display than even in Mod Libs repertoire.]

    HEY!

    I AINT EVEN HERE (well right now I am, but I wasn’t just before I was…..if you know what I mean?)

    Do folk talk about me a lot when I am not around? :devil:

  222. kezza2

    [psyclaw
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 7:48 pm | PERMALINK
    Kezza #1497

    Noted.

    Motivation to continue dialogue: Zero

    Reason 1: Waste of time and energy

    Reason 2: Zero tolerance for personal abuse tonight

    Reason 3: More unicorns on display than even in Mod Libs repetoire.]

    1. Righto. Well you’re obviously not a psych for the abused.

    2. And, you obviously lied about the questions.

    3. Not your fault if you can’ distinguish between genuine questions and personal abuse.

    4. Have a rest. Else you might really start to see unicorns.

  223. Thomas. Paine.

    [George Brandis says people who say the science is settled on climate change are “ignorant and medieval”.]

    Brandis in a past time I am sure would also say…

    ‘. people who say the science is settled on cigarette smoking and lung cancer are “ignorant and medieval”.’

    One thing about the far right of politics is that they are more than willing to sacrifice lives in the thousands and millions to protect their business mates….who pay donate to their party and get them good jobs after ..maybe.

  224. kezza2

    psyclaw

    Oh, and I’m sorry that I said one upon a time that you had dessicated balls. I was wrong.

    I don’t think you have any.

  225. briefly

    K and her siblings had a serious dilemma as far as I can see. If they had taken the strawberry and admitted to it, they were certain to cop a beating. This could excuse lying. Yet, by making a false denial, the child that had taken the strawberry increased the chances that the other children would also be beaten.

    Neither truths nor untruths could achieve a satisfactory result for K and her siblings. Arbitrary and cruel punishment would be dispensed in either case. In this instance, honest answers were strangely irrelevant to the underlying ethical issue and hark back to the medieval practice of trial by water.

    In K’s circumstances, she would easily have been excused for asking what use could come from honesty when its ruthless pursuit caused more harm than good.

    Nevertheless, we could still object to this reasoning by insisting the child should not have taken the strawberry in the first place – that dishonesty by one child harmed the whole family – and that the culprit should at least be identified if only for their own benefit. Yet this claim is also problematic. How can it make sense to expose and attach blame to a four year old for taking something as inconsequential as a strawberry, or, if it comes to the point, for any other dishonest act?

    In the aftermath of the ICAC hearings this week, many were prepared to treat O’Farrell’s failure to declare the gift of a bottle of Grange as if it were no more than the taking of a single berry: an omission of almost no consequence. In this, such observers were prepared to allow the Premier the same latitude they would readily grant a small child.

    I think this leads to the real ethical issue in both these very different sets of circumstances. The issue is trust. We need to be able to trust ourselves and each other. Personal contentment, successful interpersonal relationships, fair exchange, respect for the law and a freely ordered society are only possible where trust exists and is protected.

    Looking at things this way, it is easy to see the real ethical violations in K’s family were not the possible acts of dishonesty of small children but the use of violence and the creation of fear by their parents.

    It is equally easy to see O’Farrell’s conduct as consisting of much more than mistaken recollections about a minor gift. Whether inadvertently or not, he breached the standard of behaviour that is overtly accepted by all those who hold office on trust. Following from his own boastful words, O’Farrell quite clearly could not be relied on to perform his duty in relation to even seemingly minor matters from which he gained a personal benefit. This begs the further question: if apparently small observances meant so little, how could he be trusted on the genuinely big ones.

    Perhaps these stories also illustrate that trust is strangely indivisible and, once lost, may be deeply missed for many a long year.

  226. zoidlord

    George Brandis really say “ignorant and medieval” ?

    Then why don’t Coalition Party have a Science Minister?

    I think I know which one is “ignorant and medieval”.

  227. bemused

    kezza2@1519

    psyclaw

    Oh, and I’m sorry that I said one upon a time that you had dessicated balls. I was wrong.

    I don’t think you have any.

    Back on a charm offensive tonight kezza2?

  228. Tom L

    Hopefully George B has been instructed to think about what he’s done over Easter.

    Whoever it was in cabinet who was telling reporters GB had drunk the right wing loo laid was on the money. He’s in tune with the nutjobs at the Oz with the persecution complex. I thought the Libs were supposed I have a sixth sense for what the average Australian was thinking?

    So sad to see a man at his age mentally deteriorating.

  229. Thomas. Paine.

    [Poroti …..

    John Pilger writes today in Counterpunch of what he calls “The Strangelove effect”
    In simple terms he says the warmongering Neo-cons would be prepared to risk a nucleur war with Russia and China to preserve US hegemony,and will even pretend that such a nucleur war would be “limited” in effect
    a terrible thought
    Oddly Craig Paul Roberts,,also Reagan’
    ‘s Tres and a solid Republican now says that the USA menaces the human race an amzing statemen]

    These oligarchs believe they are immune from consequences, that they god pulling the strings of nations and military power….they fear not great conflicts, and think they can make profit from way no matter who wins/loses…they always win if they control industry and money.

    Their arrogance grows in the manner that absolute power corrupts absolutely. They maybe deluding themselves so much that they believe they can have a ‘limited’ nuclear conflict and win big time from it, always looking to increase their power and wealth.

    They are so used to having the US create wars and coups all around the world.. with no consequence to themselves that they don’t care if a long shot fails..its cost them personally nothing. So long as the curtain isn’t pulled back on them.

    So, indeed these fools may not be as worried as they should be about somebody launching a nuclear missile.

  230. psyclaw

    Mod Lib

    I know it was an oblique compliment but I was praising you!

    To me, you are no longer the unicorn champ 🙂

    Now I’m off to find my balls.

  231. Thomas. Paine.

    So many parasites now hang of the US machine that it is bankrupt and demented.

  232. kezza2

    psyclaw

    I’m sorry to be abrasive, that’s my usual attitude.

    I’m very touchy. I was abused, sexually, when I was eight years old.

    I told my parents, because I was a truthful child, and despite the punishment I’d seen for telling lies, I didn’t know that sex was bad.

    I had a history of fear of the dark. I had to have a light on. Always. In fact, I was like a canary down the mine. If the power went out during the night, I was the one to notify everyone – through demented screaming, or so I’m told.

    Mum used to tell me that my notification of the light going out was a good thing, because dad would be able to set up the generator for milking.

    Yet, my punishment for telling mum and dad about the sexual abuse was I was made to stand out in the dark, a hundred yards from the house, all by myself. For six hours.

    Darkness became not a lack of light, not just a concept, not something to fear but a real mass, a dead weight on me. I can still feel its oppressiveness; its crushing weight.

    It’s taken all this time to even set foot outside by myself at night, for a few seconds, or a few minutes, to feel proud of myself.

    I saw the red moon the other night. It was magnificent. But I had my dog with me. And I made sure there was nobody else about. And I made sure I had a beeline for the house.

    It’s silly to be 60 and still scared of the dark. But that’s me.

    And the more I search for truth the less I’m scared of the dark.

  233. spur212

    Rudd becoming UN Secretary General would be worth it just to see the reaction on Abbott’s face …

    Better yet, just to see the reaction on here! 😀

    Seriously though, he was born for the role

  234. zoidlord

    Why should ICAC say sorry? ICAC is doing it’s job.

  235. bemused

    spur212@1529

    Rudd becoming UN Secretary General would be worth it just to see the reaction on Abbott’s face …

    Better yet, just to see the reaction on here!

    Seriously though, he was born for the role

    Oh the reaction on here would be the best by far. 👿

    The Gillard cultists would go into total meltdown.

    Tone would probably just throw one of his nooddies for an hour or so.

  236. Thomas. Paine.

    [A Us Colonel(Ret’d) looks at the insane statement of a US diplomat who wants to send 150.000 US troops into the Ukraine to confront the Russians…He sees it as both mad and undoable as the US no longer can marshall such forces,after the disasters of Afg’stan and Iraq.and American people will not support such a moive

    One wonders if some US policy makers need help for their mental conditions and their lack of understanding of the new world emerging,as US power declines]

    I think the US is totally pissed that all the juicy information the NSA gathered on many European leaders wasn’t enough leverage to blackmail them into offering up a 100,000 troops to invade the Ukraine on the excuse of fighting back Russia.

    Problem for the USA, now that Snowden outed their activities,..is that they can’t use the information against European leaders lest it cause a total breakdown of relations. And the US needs its friends even more now days.

    Russia and BRICS holding many more damaging cards than the US when it comes to the Ukraine… though I suspect Russia wouldn’t mind the US / IMF paying their gas bills for the coming years. So maybe Russia is looking for parts of eastern Ukraine and leave the remainder responsible for the billions in gas bills ..lol

  237. Boerwar

    According to the Liberal Political Class someone has to say sorry every time they get annoyed with the truth coming out.

    All those mediaeval flat earth scientists should just fess up to Brandis and say sorry to everyone.

  238. spur212

    Bemused

    The fireworks would be spectacular! 😀

  239. zoidlord

    http://www.probonoaustralia.com.au/news/2014/04/welfare-review-needs-incentivise-sustainable-employment#

    “Disability is not cheap. At a minimum there are extra costs for medical and transport expenses. Pushing people into poverty is not an effective way to empower them to find and maintain sustainable employment.”

    And it’s not going to get any better.

  240. kezza2

    briefly @ 1530

    I keep telling my story about truth and lies, and honesty and the whole damn thing.

    But you’re the only person to have understood where I’m coming from.

    I did mention it earlier, about one teacher in particular, what really matters is trust.

    That teacher taught me to trust, however briefly (pun not intended) that there are some good people out there.

    And that’s what I saw in Fran. Someone who wouldn’t/couldn’t move the goalposts no matter what.

    I’m glad you saw it.

    And said it so much more succinctly that I ever could.

  241. Steve777

    It doesn’t matter what Kevin Rudd dies now. For better or worse he’s left the Australia political stage for good.

  242. bemused

    spur212@1534

    Bemused

    The fireworks would be spectacular!

    Is there a report he might get that role?

  243. zoomster

    I was wandering along the wharf at Melbourne during the Patrick dispute and two (what looked to me like) very mature men called out, “Mrs Leschen!”

    Two ex students – from my very first ever class – both then union organisers (for which they gave me credit, which I denied..)

    One of them went on to become John Brumby’s chief of staff.

  244. confessions

    [Rudd becoming UN Secretary General would be worth it just to see the reaction on Abbott’s face …

    Better yet, just to see the reaction on here!]

    Which I’d hazard a guess would be met with champagne corks popping and folk swinging from the chandeliers in happiness.

    Anything that hauls the man’s sorry arse away from the Labor caucus and any mischief making with the Oz media is a good outcome for the party. It should’ve happened sooner.

  245. zoidlord

    The Pension system in the UK is becoming (or already is) a joke:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-the-papers-27083505

  246. Steve777

    Re my 1537 – it does not matter what Kevin Rudd DOES now – predictive text (or inattention or fat clumsy fingers) strikes again

  247. bemused

    confessions@1540


    Rudd becoming UN Secretary General would be worth it just to see the reaction on Abbott’s face …

    Better yet, just to see the reaction on here!


    Which I’d hazard a guess would be met with champagne corks popping and folk swinging from the chandeliers in happiness.

    Anything that hauls the man’s sorry arse away from the Labor caucus and any mischief making with the Oz media is a good outcome for the party. It should’ve happened sooner.

    😀 It’s starting already! 😆 😆 😆

  248. deblonay

    TON PAINE HAS LOOKED… ABOVE…AT THE INCREASING MADNESS AFFECTING SOME US POLITICIANS…PEOPLE LIKE MAD MCCAIN___________________
    In the article below Pepe Escobar looks at the way the US feels impotent as the Russian-Chinese “Pipelinestan” deals links their two economies ,,across the “stans” of Central Asia…what used to be called”The Great Game.”.now pivots on gas and oil of which the Russians have a vast abundance

    The Euro dependaance of such gas/oil make the EU a natural western terminus for such resources.and would link The Euros/Russia/and China….Ukraine has a part in this vast linkage….but the US has none
    They would like to use the Ukraine to block such integratiuon…..lacking in their case both oil and gas on the scale of the central Asian landmass
    an interesting article which looks at the US problem and it’s growing isolation

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-170414.html

  249. Just Me

    [1504
    poroti

    Just Me

    Just about to hit the best time of year here, early-mid dry

    Snap ! Love the Dry but even better when it is still green and lush.]

    Green is nice, just after it has rained is wonderful, love a good lightning show (beats TV hands down). But the 6 months of relentless high humidity, usually high temps, and lots of tropical sun, is wearing. Especially that build-up. I have air-con, but don’t wish to live in a box for half the year.

    Dry season does mess with some in the hay fever and asthma crowd. Mostly later in the dry, I think, when it gets really dry and dusty, and the big fires get going.

  250. William Bowe

    [Oh the reaction on here would be the best by far. 👿

    The Gillard cultists would go into total meltdown.]

    Thank God we’ve stopped talking about the boring old biggest-political-story-of-the-year, and moved on to something interesting.

  251. briefly

    [1536
    kezza2

    briefly @ 1530

    I keep telling my story about truth and lies, and honesty and the whole damn thing.]

    kezza2, I hope you keep on telling your story. We need trust and we need courage too and we need to know that dignity will outlast sorrow.

  252. deblonay

    Tom Paine.. please note this site (below) which is from a Swiss source and pro-Russian,but which puts up many new views on the world order

    In today’s article the writer says that the Russians(of whom he seems to have great knowledge…I understand he is he’s a professional Military anylyst) are now determined to challenge the US hegemony across the world…dangerous but interesting in the long term

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.de/

  253. confessions

    [Dry season does mess with some in the hay fever and asthma crowd. Mostly later in the dry, I think, when it gets really dry and dusty, and the big fires get going.]

    The thing for me is that everything felt dead during the dry. It was as if life packed up and shut itself down. As much as the temperature and humidity were much more bearable, I found the lack of life hard to deal with.

    But in the wet you’re practically engulfed by life. I loved it, even though I found the gathering mould rather gross. 🙂

  254. bemused

    spur212@1545

    Bemused

    http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2014/04/19/rudds-long-plot-replace-ban-ki-moon/1397829600#.U1GsLycaySO

    Not surprised it hasn’t been mentioned here that much (if at all) today

    I haven’t seen any prior mention, but the usual suspects have already started to react.
    William is a bit of a surprise though. 😉

  255. briefly

    Rudd for the UN? Oh, nooo!! The UN has enough troubles already.

  256. Tom the first and best

    1549

    If there is a fight for hegemony between a Putin run Russia and the USA then it would be better for the world if the USA wins. The Americans are bad but Putin and co and worse.

  257. victoria

    [The spectacular termination of Barry O’Farrell’s premiership over a “forgotten” gift from a Liberal Party associated lobbyist and fundraiser being investigated by ICAC, Nick Di Girolamo, has led to much astonishment and confusion within the Right of the political class and its media hangers on. For the second time since it was set up by the conservatives, the Commission’s investigations have led to the resignation of a Liberal premier. To add insult to the Right’s injuries, on the first occasion Nick Greiner ended up being essentially cleared and on this occasion — at least so far, because more may come to light — the infraction seems relatively minor in terms of the elite lifestyles politicians enjoy: a $3000 bottle of wine ]

    See more at: http://left-flank.org/2014/04/19/barrys-fall-anti-politics-authority-corruption/#sthash.qJrmfJ8V.2yrt4l2a.dpuf

  258. dave

    Vic – some good stuff in the rest of that article.

    Not mentioned is that ICAC needs to be strengthened even after what has happened and hopefully as hearings proceed the need for this will become apparent.

    The tories are really going to have major grief with all of this.

    Do they strike back at ICAC in “punishment” and “retribution” in reflex at what has happened or do they attempt to fix things to shut out the very lobbyists who supported them all the way to regain power and who are mates.

    If they don’t they are road kill with voters. The same voters who are seeing proposals from spivs to build hotels in the Botanical Gardens and sell off other public lands like Harold Park – all to the same spiv tory mates.

    baird is a not up to it IMO.

  259. confessions

    victoria:

    Yet despite all that this whole ICAC inquiry is still fascinating. It’s claimed a federal minister, and a NSW Premier. Where will it all end? It’s just absolutely so compelling.

  260. Fran Barlow

    Much as I hate to disagree with Tad Tietze, Greiner was not essentially cleared. It was found that he wasn’t subject to the law, the facts of the matter notwithstanding.

  261. dave

    The second part of that SBS show tonight “Building the North” was really good viewing.

    Northern UK Industrialisation etc.

  262. dave

    Fran Barlow@1557

    Much as I hate to disagree with Tad Tietze, Greiner was not essentially cleared. It was found that he wasn’t subject to the law, the facts of the matter notwithstanding.

    Correct – again no matter how much the tories are desperate to re-write it all – they must not be allowed to do so.

  263. confessions

    [The tories are really going to have major grief with all of this.]

    Do you really think so? Obeid and co are accused of committing major fraud on the public purse. That stuff is rank. Like, seriously rank.

    They need to go down for that if proven guilty. By contrast, the Liberals are just facing political embarrassment on the face of what we’ve seen so far. Nothing that could lead to actual criminal charges.

  264. Fran Barlow

    Dr Tad is on the far left Dave. He is one of those calling us Greens neo-liberals on bikes.

  265. shellbell

    Some irony lies within the likelihood that the current ICAC inquiry will see corruption findings, if any, against only ALP politicians.

    Tripodi and Kelly, likely.

    Eddie is a bit on the fringe on this one.

  266. victoria

    And here is Elder’s take on the BOF saga

    [Barry O’Farrell misled ICAC and had to resign. It’s still a pity that he’s gone from the Premiership, and it’s taken me days to work out why.

    He made his way up through the Liberal Party with the deft touch of getting along with everyone without being anyone’s patsy. He spent time observing all of the players in the NSW Liberals up close, including their weaknesses and how to get around them. It’s part of the reason why I both liked him and rated him as a real political operative, not just a player but a stayer, attaining a state to which most political-class dickheads can only aspire. ]

    http://www.andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/the-bottle-and-damage-done.html

  267. dave

    [ confessions
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Do you really think so? Obeid and co are accused of committing major fraud on the public purse. That stuff is rank. Like, seriously rank.

    They need to go down for that if proven guilty. By contrast, the Liberals are just facing political embarrassment on the face of what we’ve seen so far. Nothing that could lead to actual criminal charges. ]

    Dead right I do. They have some of their own facing potentially embarrassing weeks at ICAC with utterly unknow outcomes – with negative outlook.

    Senior tories appear to have questions to answer which will be on TV screens for a long time to come with implication for the NSW government having to face an election within a year.

    They are the government, they have to wear it and address it.

    But yes obeid still reflects on Labor but no longer one way traffic – and hopefully that might move into the DPP’s area very soon.

  268. dave

    Fran Barlow@1561

    Dr Tad is on the far left Dave. He is one of those calling us Greens neo-liberals on bikes.

    Fair enough.

    Others have made similar comments about Greiner over the years.

  269. Thomas. Paine.

    hehe the butt hurtedness has started with a few here already. lol

    [
    Bob Carr believes Kevin Rudd is ideal for the top job at the United Nations

    Former prime minister’s ‘legendary forcefulness’ would be an advantage in leading the world body, former foreign minister says
    ]

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/19/bob-carr-believes-kevin-rudd-ideal-for-top-job-at-united-nations

    Rather than see the importance and significance of this real possibility … Australia and world-wise…. the butthurted ones would rather…well….snivel.

  270. zoidlord

    @Victoria/1563

    Perhaps he felt that if he resigned, they move onto someone else, and more will follow?

  271. dave

    shellbell@1562

    Some irony lies within the likelihood that the current ICAC inquiry will see corruption findings, if any, against only ALP politicians.

    Tripodi and Kelly, likely.

    Eddie is a bit on the fringe on this one.

    Will some tory identities etc also likely see corruption findings ?

  272. Thomas. Paine.

    [1549

    If there is a fight for hegemony between a Putin run Russia and the USA then it would be better for the world if the USA wins. The Americans are bad but Putin and co and worse.]

    Getting the balance right is important. I think there will develop a natural balance.. China-Russia-USA/Europe and others. The US needs a check just as much as they other guys. The USA isn’t the kind motherly truthful administrator of world justice of 1950s propaganda. It is as just as evil and murderous as the rest…we just happen to sit on their side of the ledger as an ally.

    The next game changer….with uncertain outcomes is the eventual demise of the USD as preeminent global reserve currency. Which will force dramatic changes at home.

  273. confessions

    victoria:

    Thanks, will read Elder tomorrow when I can devote time to him.

  274. confessions

    dave:

    I guess we’ll see ultimately where this all goes in the end.

  275. briefly

    [1561
    Fran Barlow

    Dr Tad is on the far left Dave. He is one of those calling us Greens neo-liberals on bikes.]

    I like that. It makes me think I could be Green too.

  276. dave

    ‘Fess

    There should be a flurry of NSW Polling soon anyway.

    [ confessions
    Posted Saturday, April 19, 2014 at 10:37 pm | PERMALINK

    dave:

    I guess we’ll see ultimately where this all goes in the end. ]

  277. Roxanna

    [I haven’t seen any prior mention, but the usual suspects have already started to react.
    William is a bit of a surprise though. ]

    Probably sick of lying and curries.

  278. lefty e

    [Former prime minister’s ‘legendary forcefulness’ would be an advantage in leading the world body, former foreign minister says]

    Kevin Rudd to RULE THE WORLD!

    🙂

  279. deblonay

    Th test for the US Dollar may come in the very near future

    In May Putin will visit China to sign a huge Gas deal which will involve a TRILLION DOLLARS worth of Russian gas for China..over the next ten years

    and the payments…in Chinese yuan and Russian roubles to cut the US out of making any profit on the deal
    such deals also effect the US economy at home…if the dollar values slide then the costs of imports becomes higher in the US…notably for resources like oil and gas…all bad for US living standards

  280. crikey whitey

    I am pretty sad that only one single person paid the slightest attention to my posts of yesterday.

    Not even a hello.

    I could say more on this. But does it matter?

    Do you give a fat rats? The answer is sadly, no.

    You may quote me.

    It is as dismissive and ugly as the politics we discuss.

    Or don’t even bother to respond to.

  281. zoidlord

    Retweeted by sortius
    Scott M ‏@ScooterDMC 5h

    @TurnbullMalcolm So, check slide 9. http://www.telekom.com/static/-/212856/2/praesentation-si … a whopping 10 years extra from copper, not the 50+ from fibre. #nbn #auspol

  282. Rossmore

    Crikey, missed ur posts … what was ur beef?

  283. zoidlord

    7.8 Earthquake South of PNG not long ago.
    http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/usb000pr89#summary

    After initial smaller ones.

  284. Jolyon Wagg

    Hey CW…what were you posting about? I would go and look but it’s kind of hard to go back and look now that there is no “All” button so that you can search through all the posts in a thread.

  285. crikey whitey

    Rossmore.

    Thank you. For responding.

    If you (or anyone for that matter) could be bothered to look at my posts of Friday, I remarked upon issues of the moment.

    It really pisses me off that one goes to the trouble of responding to issues of the day or week or month or year and in response.

    Zilch.

    I would not like to think that I am tooooo boring.

  286. Jolyon Wagg

    Hey CW I just went through all the pages for last night and couldn’t find any posts from you. I read here a lot more than I post and I suspect there are quite a few who do likewise…so don’t assume a lack of response implies a lack of interest.

  287. Rossmore

    Crikey 1583. No I dont as a habit routinely check out posts from the night before. Spell out what your point was in a couple of sentences. Otherwise stop whingeing.

  288. DisplayName

    Hello crikey, I acknowledge your existence.

  289. crikey whitey

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Will I be snipped? Others have used that expression.

  290. crikey whitey

    Jolyon Wagg

    Quite.

  291. briefly

    [1583……crikey whitey]

    Hey CW, I missed your posts – did not go a-blogging on Friday – but it’s good to see you tonight 🙂

  292. cud chewer

    [Will I be snipped?]

    Yep, no more babies for you.

  293. frednk

    I’m sorry folks, space craft may fly around it; but you have to do something other that say I’m a loony when I tell you the earth is flat (it actually held up by an elephant).

    It would seem I have the right to be a bigot and an ignorant sod.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/freespeechnow/fsn_article/the-state-should-never-be-the-arbiter-of-what-people-can-think/14936#.U1Kdw6Ia2n5

    [
    He describes how Penny Wong, the Labor Party senator for South Australia and minister for climate change in the Julia Gillard government, would ‘stand up in the Senate and say “The science is settled”. In other words, “I am not even going to engage in a debate with you”. It was ignorant, it was medieval, the approach of these true believers in climate change.’ Wong, whom Brandis tells me is ‘Australia’s high priestess of political correctness’, is far from alone in suffering from what the American journalist Joel Kotkin recently described as ‘The Debate Is Over’ Syndrome. Throughout eco-circles, and among the political and media elites more broadly, the idea that the time for debating climate change is over, and now we just need action, action, action, is widespread. And to Brandis, this speaks to a new and illiberal climate of anti-intellectualism, to the emergence of ‘a habit of mind and mode of discourse which would deny the legitimacy of an alternative point of view, where rather than winning the argument [they] exclude their antagonists from the argument’.
    ]