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Federal Election 2016

Apr 27, 2014

Seat of the week: Wakefield

Seat of the week visits South Australia one last time to cover Wakefield on the northern fringe of Adelaide, held for Labor since 2007 by Nick Champion.

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Red and blue numbers respectively indicate booths with two-party majorities for Labor and Liberal. Click for larger image. Map boundaries courtesy of Ben Raue at The Tally Room.

Wakefield extends from outer northern Adelaide to rural territory as far as Clare 100 kilometres to the north, with overwhelming Labor strength around Elizabeth and Salisbury partly balanced by support for the Liberals in the Clare Valley. It has existed in name since South Australia was first divided into electorates in 1903, but its complexion changed dramatically when its southern neighbour Bonython was abolished when the state’s representation was reduced from 12 seats to 11 in 2004. Previously a conservative rural and outskirts seat encompassing the Murray Valley and Yorke Peninsula, it came to absorb the outer suburban industrial centre of Elizabeth while retaining the satellite town of Gawler, the Clare Valley wine-growing district, and the Gulf St Vincent coast from Two Wells north to Port Wakefield.

Prior to 2004, Wakefield was won by the major conservative party of the day at every election except 1938 and 1943, when it was won by Labor, and 1928, when it was won by the Country Party. The Liberal member from 1983 to 2004 was Neil Andrew, who spent the last six years of his parliamentary career serving as Speaker. Andrew at first considered challenging Patrick Secker for preselection in Barker after the 2004 redistribution turned Wakefield’s 14.7% margin into a notional Labor margin of 1.5%, but instead opted to retire. Wakefield was nonetheless retained for the Liberals at the ensuing election by David Fawcett, who picked up a 2.2% swing off a subdued Labor vote around Elizabeth to unseat Martyn Evans, who had held Bonython for Labor since 1994. Fawcett’s slender margin was demolished by a 7.3% swing in 2007, but he would return to parliament as a Senator after the 2010 election.

Wakefield has since been held for Labor by Nick Champion, a former state party president, Shop Distributive and Allied Employees Association official and staffer for state Industrial Relations Minister Michael Wright. The SDA link identifies him with the potentate of the South Australian Right, outgoing Senator Don Farrell. He nonetheless went against Farrell by coming out in support of Kevin Rudd in the days before his unsuccessful February 2012 leadership challenge, resigning as caucus secretary to do so. As with Labor’s other South Australian newcomers from the 2007 election, Champion had no trouble retaining his seat at the 2010 election, a 5.4% swing boosting his margin to 12.0%. However, the seat has since returned to the marginal zone following a redistribution in which it traded an area around Salisbury for Lydoch and Williamstown east of Gawler, reducing the margin to 10.3%, and a 7.1% swing to the Liberals at the 2013 election, which has left it at 3.4%.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

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2933 comments

2,933 thoughts on “Seat of the week: Wakefield

  1. poroti

    Yaaaay . Found out the story behind the name the IKEA faction. According to PvO’s prog it derives from “You bring it together when you need to get something done”.

  2. sceptic

    BB

    Mark Simkin like his maaate Chris Ulhmann writes his own merde

  3. Tom Hawkins

    [Just got phone polled by Galaxy:]

    I’d expect results of polling on a Tuesday/WEDNESDAY and/or Thursday to be published on the Saturday. That should start up the brass band leading into the rapidly approaching budget week (yn)

  4. poroti

    briefly

    Which is why I class Tones and Toolman as weird. They both heard voices in their head that said god wanted them to never have sex and dress up in frocks.

  5. confessions

    briefly:

    Agreed. The whole charade is just a throwback to a long ago, forgotten and archaic period.

  6. mari

    So two PBers have been polled by Galaxy, hope a lot more will be polled 😀

  7. briefly

    poroti and confessions, at some level their curiosity in the clergy must have something to do with a need for approval and an attraction to authority and to the secret or the hidden; perhaps it also reflects a need to assert male primacy, though a celibate life is a very strange way to express that. I just do not understand any of this cultism. It is the closest thing to medieval we still have going round.

  8. poroti

    mari

    [
    So two PBers have been polled by Galaxy, hope a lot more will be polled 😀 ]
    Not if they are ESJ and crew 🙂

  9. mari

    Poroti 2641

    Thank you I was just about to add a comment to the same effect and especially Cranky if he is in Oz at the moment

  10. WeWantPaul

    [implement a total zero tolerance approach to such appalling conduct and back up their words by referring such allegations to criminal investigation.]

    I am guessing that there is no part of this that you find difficult or complex?

  11. Boerwar

    We could always crucify them… oh, wait.

  12. Boerwar

    What we could really do to help is to turn the bosses, who presided over mass child rapes and assorted brutality on a global scale, into saints.

  13. ruawake

    I assume Galaxy will be in the Weekend Murdoch tabloids, with juicy bits on Sunday, before Newspoll.

    Then everything is back in sync for the Budget, Nielsen of course does its own thing.

  14. confessions

    briefly:

    I’m not religious so have NFI what these people are thinking when they decide to pledge a life to the clergy.

  15. Boerwar

    This is, I believe, the very first time that Abbott’s first impulses – to bull through or to double up – have failed him.

    Backpeddle Abbott.

  16. bemused

    mari@2639

    So two PBers have been polled by Galaxy, hope a lot more will be polled

    Why?

  17. gloryconsequence

    What were the previous Galaxy and Newspoll results?

  18. confessions

    [I am guessing that there is no part of this that you find difficult or complex?]

    Nope pretty straight forward to me.

    Paedophilia is paedophilia whether it occurs in the family home or the church run institution.

  19. Ian

    I am just imagining the faces at LNP/Opus Dei headquarters when the word comes through that the Catholic Church heirarchy will also allow priests and brothers to marry each other.

  20. confessions

    [This is, I believe, the very first time that Abbott’s first impulses – to bull through or to double up – have failed him.]

    I’ve noticed that Abbott doesn’t have the cut through in govt that he had in opposition. I’m assuming this is because now they are the govt, they are expected to have answers of their own instead of pointing to a Labor govt and shouting no.

    Guess it sucks to be Tone with the game he’s played for the last 4 years. But he brought that on himself. I have no sympathy.

  21. Edwina StJohn

    How do you all feel about the Greens backing Abbott on PPL?

    Does seem ironic that the Greens seem to pop up at the worst time to screw the ALP. DEja vu – imagine if the Greens had voted for the CPRS in 2007, where would be now?

  22. Edwina StJohn

    How do you all feel about the Greens backing Abbott on PPL?

    Does seem ironic that the Greens seem to pop up at the worst time to screw the ALP. DEja vu – imagine if the Greens had voted for the CPRS in 2007, where would we be now?

  23. bemused

    Ian@2652

    I am just imagining the faces at LNP/Opus Dei headquarters when the word comes through that the Catholic Church heirarchy will also allow priests and brothers to marry each other.

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2014/04/27/seat-of-the-week-wakefield-2/?comment_page=54/#comment-1965771“>Ian@2652

    I am just imagining the faces at LNP/Opus Dei headquarters when the word comes through that the Catholic Church heirarchy will also allow priests and brothers to marry each other.

    😆 😆 😆 Classic!

  24. WeWantPaul

    [Nope pretty straight forward to me.
    ]

    Yeah I could tell you knew nothing about it at all.

  25. Edwina StJohn

    Yes Bemused and Ian – it is a bit like the reaction of Aboriginal people in the NT when the professional left turns up to “help”. They know what pain, agony and abuse that “help” has caused them.

  26. bemused

    Edwina StJohn@2658

    Yes Bemused and Ian – it is a bit like the reaction of Aboriginal people in the NT when the professional left turns up to “help”. They know what pain, agony and abuse that “help” has caused them.

    What are you raving about now?
    Go take your medication. 😡

  27. zoidlord

    @2654

    Is that your new instructions from Menzies House?

  28. Edwina StJohn

    Well it is true in the Aboriginal community “intervention” and “welfare management” is code for bringing in the White paedos to “help” bemused.

  29. Tom Hawkins

    [How do you all feel about the Greens backing Abbott on PPL?]

    Piss weak effort on you part. Try harder.

  30. swamprat

    ESJ

    “intervention” was a (War Criminal) Howard policy.

  31. Edwina StJohn

    Q. Whats the most frightening thing a private school boy can hear at school ?

    A. Brother Michael wants to see you alone in the Principal’s Office.

  32. Everything

    Evening Bludgerificators

  33. Edwina StJohn

    Well often swamprat people who purport to help have sinister motives. The Royal Commission has shown that surely?

  34. swamprat

    Tom

    [How do you all feel about the Greens backing Abbott on PPL?]

    I agree with PUP and am appalled that the Greens will support welfare being paid in INVERSE proportion to need. Talk about middle class pillage.

  35. Everything

    Its not welfare, it is a workplace entitlement.

  36. swamprat

    Evening Vulture Capitalist.

  37. Everything

    US senate polling looking better for the Dems

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2014/senate/2014_elections_senate_map_no_toss_ups.html

    don’t forget my post some time ago that the Dems would retain control (when the polls said the opposite)

  38. ruawake

    From my limited reading it seems the Greens approve of the increase in Company tax to fund a limited PPL scheme. They do not support the tax cut, franking credits lurk that Hockey pulled.

    Plus didn’t Abbott say he would never do any deals with The Greens, surely he wouldn’t lie again?

  39. crikey whitey

    Photo with the netball top. I recall Abbott’s eyes lighting up (dress ups?) and Margie stepping forward saying ‘I think I will take that’

    http://www.news.com.au/national/tony-abbott-jokes-about-8216body-contact8217-with-teen-netballers/story-fnho52ip-1226706352231

  40. confessions

    [How do you all feel about the Greens backing Abbott on PPL?]

    The Greens are a populist party which is the antithesis of pragmatism and sensible government. If they want to follow the Liberals over the cliff of fiscal irresponsibility, that’s up to them.

    Let their own voters defend their party’s actions.

  41. Keyman

    Edwina StJohn 2654 & 2655- The Greens are way too ideologically driven for any reflection on past own goals so why would anyone on this forum be surprised or concerned at them supporting Abbott and co again.

  42. swamprat

    Everything

    [Its not welfare, it is a workplace entitlement.]

    Just because you think a “levy” is not a “tax” if a Lib says it is not. It doesn’t change reality (except in your mind).

    If it is paid for by taxpayers and not by employers, it is WELFARE.

    Or is welfare only paid to non-liberal voters? Liberal welfare is “entitlement”..

  43. Steve777

    Its not welfare, it is a workplace entitlement

    No, it’s paid by the taxpayer so it’s welfare.

  44. confessions

    [Plus didn’t Abbott say he would never do any deals with The Greens]

    He did. And since then he’s accepted their deal over increasing the debt ceiling. So yes, Abbott’s lips were moving. Yet again.

  45. Everything

    Is worker’s compensation welfare?

  46. Everything

    [confessions
    Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2014 at 8:06 pm | PERMALINK
    Plus didn’t Abbott say he would never do any deals with The Greens

    He did. And since then he’s accepted their deal over increasing the debt ceiling]

    What was the deal over increasing the debt ceiling?

  47. J341983

    1. I expect that the Government will be paying for sick and recreation leave… considering they’re also workplace entitlements.

    2. You’re not the only one to predict that the Dems would hold the Senate… although I think that map is off.

  48. zoidlord

    @Mod Lib/2679

    Increased Transparency, which he clearly failed.

  49. AussieAchmed

    Driving home from work I almost crashed the car when I heard that Abbott was blaming Labor for HIS changes to HIS PPL.

    Remember this policy was costed by the PBO and Abbott/Hockey stood by those costings. At the same time they were ranting and yelling from the roof tops that there was a budget emergency.

    Nothing has changed, except Abbott is now PM and has to deliver and can’t hide behind 3 word slogans.

    Now that HE has decided to cap PPL at $50,000, will the levy remain 1.5%? Will he still reduce the business tax rate to 28.5%?

    Is the plan to reduce the PPL amount just a con job to create more revenue? Still hit the companies with the 1.5% levy, don’t reduce the tax rate to 28.5%…..what a weasel con job ..there are used car salesmen and lawyers looking on in envy at the con job being done by Abbott

  50. swamprat

    [Is worker’s compensation welfare?]

    Isn’t that an insurance scheme….

  51. Edwina StJohn

    Confessions like you I am shocked and appalled that politicians do deals with other politicans.

  52. Edwina StJohn

    Maybe its time to give up driving AA or at least get your blood pressure checked?

  53. poroti

    [Is worker’s compensation welfare?]
    Adopt the no fault Kiwi scheme. They found that keeping lawyers out of it meant a no fault scheme was cheaper.

  54. Steve777

    Is worker’s compensation welfare? Workers’ compensation is a sort of mandatory insurance scheme.

  55. swamprat

    ESJ

    [Confessions like you I am shocked and appalled that politicians do deals with other politicans.]

    Don’t you get it? No one minds politicians doing deals. Some mind the endless hypocracy of Rabbott moaning and tearing his (limited) hair at ALP negotiating with other parties.

    As a Lib, i realise you wouldn’t recognise hypocracy. You would think it’s just normal.

  56. ruawake

    Er hang on a sec, Abbott stated today he “modified” his PPL due to the sate of the Budget, nice try but someone is telling lies Tony.

    [As it emerged the company tax levy may only raise enough to fund about half the cost of the scheme, and Labor launched a new ad blitz highlighting the Coalition’s pledged budget cuts, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott promised no more cuts would be required to find the extra funding for his scheme.

    “This doesn’t make the fiscal situation worse, it’s fully funded,” he said.

    The Coalition declined to release any costings other than to say the scheme would begin on July 1, 2015, cost $10 billion in its first two years and average about $5.5 billion a year when fully operational. Full costings would be released closer to the election, a spokesman said.

    Shadow treasurer Joe Hockey said the scheme would be budget-neutral and had been fully costed by the Parliamentary Budget Office.]

  57. confessions

    Barnett’s numpty shark cull policy grinds to an expected and disappointing end:

    [Data from the Department of Fisheries for the period from January 25 to March 16 shows 31 sharks were killed while a further 14 were found dead on hooks, including two mako sharks.

    The vast majority of those caught were tiger sharks, but a blacktip and dusky whaler were also caught and released alive.

    No great white sharks, which are responsible for most fatal attacks on humans, were caught.

    While the controversial catch-and-kill policy targeted great white, bull and tiger sharks bigger than three metres, all but two of those that were found dead on hooks were smaller, including the makos, which measured only 1.7m and 2m.]

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/23085021/shark-cull-ends-but-may-return/
    Fan-frickin-tastic. A whole bunch of biodiversity (immediate and likely downstream) unnecessarily slaughtered for the sake of Barnett’s act-first-regret-later idiocy.

    And Hunt just approved an extension of this bunch of crazy for a further 3 years, meanwhile Barnett tries to make it about the protests rather than the ineffectiveness of his thought bubble policy. Unbelievable.

  58. Everything

    [swamprat
    Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2014 at 8:16 pm | PERMALINK
    ESJ

    Confessions like you I am shocked and appalled that politicians do deals with other politicans.

    Don’t you get it? No one minds politicians doing deals. Some mind the endless hypocracy of Rabbott moaning and tearing his (limited) hair at ALP negotiating with other parties.

    As a Lib, i realise you wouldn’t recognise hypocracy]

    Is hypocracy when you don’t have enough government?

  59. Rex Douglas

    Does the Greens Party actually support the Conservative view that some babies are worth more than others ?

    Seems so…

  60. confessions

    [Confessions like you I am shocked and appalled that politicians do deals with other politicans.]

    I’m not shocked that the Greens do deals with the Liberals. And I’d hazard a guess that deep down you aren’t either.

  61. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    I just watched 7.30. Abbott dropped a baby, he picked the poor toddler up by the arms and then dropped the child.

  62. Edwina StJohn

    Lol swampy because the alp is a paragon of virtue ? Roflmao.

  63. swamprat

    hypocracy is when you cannot spell.

    i went to a Christian Brothers school, Got more gats (straps) than lessons.

  64. zoidlord

    @2691

    Does the current government even have a government? They seem to be confused over their first budget.

  65. swamprat

    ESJ

    [Lol swampy because the alp is a paragon of virtue ? Roflmao.]

    You admit you aim to be as bad as each other? That is the Lib defence???

    I am not in the centre-right ALP…

    You can Roflmao to the ends of the earth for all i care.

  66. Rex Douglas

    confessions #2690

    Lots of donations coming into WA Libs coffers from the WA tourism industry no doubt ?

  67. Everything

    [swamprat
    ….i went to a Christian Brothers school, Got more gats (straps) than lessons.]

    Ouch….sorry to hear that.

    Hypocracy could be a synonym for anarchism based on the derivations hypo (too little) and cracy (government).

  68. swamprat

    Rex

    [Lots of donations coming into WA Libs coffers from the WA tourism industry no doubt ?]

    Do you think shark haters are a big ‘demographic’?

  69. ruawake

    Surely with criminal charges against Grocon for Industrial manslaughter Abbott will condemn them in Parliament.

  70. Edwina StJohn

    Swamprat – are you a deep green or a light green or an entryist?

  71. Steve777

    Abbott’s PPL will be financed by a 1.5% ‘levy’ on big companies. Now isn’t that a great big new tax on everything? Won’t this be passed on by the companies affected? We know from the sound and fury that accompanied the introduction if the Carbon price and mining tax that big companies will trash the country rather than take a cut in profits, so won’t this be an economy-wide wrecking ball? Won’t medium sized country towns be wiped off the map? Won’t the CPI surge by an unimaginable amount? Won’t there be sovereign risk, with big miners buggering off to somewhere like Zimbabwe where they won’t have to pay the extra tax?

  72. crikey whitey

    I had a great time today.

    At a course put on by the local RSL.

    ‘Ask Not What Your Country Can Do.’

    Today we had Foraging for Seniors.

    I just cooked up some nettles and wild onion soup. At least I think they are.

    Next week, Edible Insects.

    How to prepare in the style of NOMA.

    Recommended as tweeted by Tony on his earlier trip, NOMA at Claridges.

  73. Edwina StJohn

    Good to see G.G posting again! The healing!

  74. swamprat

    Everything

    [Hypocracy could be a synonym for anarchism based on the derivations hypo (too little) and cracy (government).]

    I realise i am a hypocrast!!!!

  75. swamprat

    Edwina SJ

    I am a hypocrast. Ask Everything.

  76. crikey whitey

    Steve 777

    It’s the ‘Trickle Down Levy.’

  77. Al Dente

    After the last page or so of comments, I have just one question for Edwina St John…

    …Are you high?

  78. swamprat

    crikey

    [Today we had Foraging for Seniors.]

    Is that the new Liberal Party work requirements for the pension?

  79. AussieAchmed

    Hockey was actually saying before the election that with the 1.5% levy, the state and federal govt handing over the money they pay for PPL, and private companies contributing to the PPL “pool”, the Govt would have a billion dollars a year left over.

  80. confessions

    Rex D:

    The shark cull was incredibly divisive here. If, as it appears from media reports, the results of the trial have wiped egg across Barnett’s face, then I’d imagine that division to intensify.

    I recall seeing comments from several tourism operators in the media opposed to the shark cull. What this means in a broader sense, people can make what they want of it.

  81. Edwina StJohn

    Its curious how many people here are still smarting about the fall of the Gillardine and how Abbott won.

    It has been 7 months – time to get over it comrades!

  82. Tricot

    It would be a lovely touch of irony, if right now, or within the next two weeks, a couple of “boats” turn up off the coast. Or, perhaps a riot/death at some holding camp?

    Would make it a totally damaging period for both the confidence and the appearance of this very poor Federal government we have at the moment.

    As an aside, Paul Murray on 6PR had Saul Eslake on his program in which Eslake somehow concocted that with the PPL scheme, by the time the big companies picked up at least half the coast and all existing PPL schemes were rolled into one, that by the second year of the programme it would actually “make money” for the government.

    Murray, with his usual Liberal megaphone on, then claimed “the rest of the press have largely ignored this story”.

  83. zoidlord

    @2714

    Your own post about is in the stage of conflict.

  84. confessions

    [Its curious how many people here are still smarting about the fall of the Gillardine and how Abbott won.]

    It’s curious how many Liberal shills continue to snipe about Gillard in an attempt to ignore the many and varied failures of the incumbent PM, who clearly isn’t up to the job.

    It’s been nearly 12 months since Gillard was PM. Time to get over it spivs!

  85. briefly

    [2668
    Everything

    Its not welfare, it is a workplace entitlement.]

    It’s neither. It’s a fertility bonus to be paid to selected females inversely with their means. Those who are the most fertile and most need a grant will get nothing. Those who are the least fertile and need a grant the least will get the most.

  86. poroti

    swamprat

    [

    Do you think shark haters are a big ‘demographic’?]
    These pictures in the Emperor’s electorate iconic beach anti shark cull protest suggest not.

    http://images.watoday.com.au/2014/02/01/5124130/shark-crowd-wide-620×349.jpg

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jvOfZUrISXY/Usf12FUWE0I/AAAAAAAAAUI/IO1OJH7ocno/s1600/GWS+protest.jpg

  87. swamprat

    ESJ

    [Swamprat – are you a deep green or a light green or an entryist?]

    You must know, deep down, understand (or at least have a little unease) that current policies and settings to: endlessly pillage the environment and resources, to convert community owned assets to the hands of the few, the indifferent destruction of most other species on earth, policies to massively move wealth and power to a smaller group of elite and powerful people, and the endless vacuous ‘drug’ of the population which is the MSM, is really unsustainable (doomed).

    Surely you must have some unease about it? Or not?

  88. Tricot

    Aha! AA @ 2712 must have seen/heard something similar.

    At no point did Murray think that the Big End of Town as just going to take it. The deal is a 2% decrease in company tax, offset by the 1.5% PPL levy and the rest made up from the paper shuffling from existing schemes into the new one.

    As Eslake pointed out, small companies will get the 2% and not have to contribute to the scheme and somehow the States save money as well.

    Of course, that the money would be better spend on supporting parents directly with child care costs was seen by Murray and Eslake as “another argument”.

    It would be safe to say, that not one of Murray’s 6PR Red Neck listeners understood any of this.

  89. swamprat

    poroti

    [These pictures in the Emperor’s electorate iconic beach anti shark cull protest suggest not.]

    wow, i thought WA’ers were like Qld’ers. Sorry i was wrong.

  90. Rex Douglas

    confessions
    Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2014 at 8:34 pm | PERMALINK
    Its curious how many people here are still smarting about the fall of the Gillardine and how Abbott won.

    It’s curious how many Liberal shills continue to snipe about Gillard in an attempt to ignore the many and varied failures of the incumbent PM, who clearly isn’t up to the job.

    It’s been nearly 12 months since Gillard was PM. Time to get over it spivs!

    Cheerleaders from all 3 major parties tend to ignore their teams glaring failures…

  91. Edwina StJohn

    Al Dente – funny.

    I’d be frightened to be high or otherwise on Pollbludger. AA would be the green lizard king, deblonay would be the nasty fairy and swamprat would be the talking stuffed toy!

  92. Tricot

    Now if this were Labor, the meme would be something along the lines of, “The Liberals just can’t seem to sell their policies”. How often did we here the Tory critics (and those so-say Labor supporters) hammer Labor on this very issue when they were in power?

  93. Edwina StJohn

    As an independent swampy, I hold no candle for organised politics, I am only interested in moi.

  94. swamprat

    ESJ

    [I am only interested in moi.]

    Ahh the Moi Party. Famous for their altruism!!

  95. Steve777

    Tony Abbott’s PPL Scheme, like much Coalition policy, seems to take inspiration from the following Bible verse:

    For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken even that which he hath.

    —Matthew 25:29, King James Version

    Of course replace ‘him’ with ‘her’ in the case of PPL.

  96. Edwina StJohn

    Well swampy as Paul Keating used to say – always back the horse called self-interest at least you know its trying.

  97. Helen Sykes

    I hope that ‘foraging for seniors’ course included the perils of the death cap mushrooms that grow so prolifically in the ACT.

  98. Edwina StJohn

    What are you going to do next Steve, quote the verse about stoning the sodomites?

  99. Helen Sykes

    On the other hand, foraging for toxic mushrooms could solve Joe’s problem of too many useless pensioners.

  100. J341983

    @ESJ – 2714… it’s hardly our fault that this Government has been one self-inflicted cock-up after another.

  101. Tricot

    Never mind about worrying about the Labor regime just passed.

    Some conservatives go back to Gough Whitlam to blame everything that they see wrong in the country to his relatively short tenure.

    In the meantime, the once-upon-a-time-conservative-hero, Malcolm Frazer, is now an embarrassment to these self-same Tories.

    Rooster for 8 years, feather duster to them now.

  102. Tricot

    Meanwhile, Tony Abbott has started out 8 months ago, as a feather duster.

  103. Bushfire Bill

    [How often did we hear the Tory critics (and those so-say Labor supporters) hammer Labor on this very issue when they were in power?]

    And it was put as proof Labor didn’t deserve to be in government.

    Classic rule by Press Gallery groupthink.

  104. zoidlord

    EDJ in spin mode!

  105. swamprat

    Steve777

    One of my always remembered quotes, except for the funny Protestant turn of phrase…. 🙂

    [For to everyone who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough; but anyone who has not, will be deprived even of what he has.]

  106. Edwina StJohn

    “Let her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of My burial. “For you always have the poor with you, but you do not always have Me.”John 12:8

    Is this biblical proof that wealth redistribution policies dont work?

  107. crikey whitey

    Swamprat and Helen Sykes

    crikey

    Today we had Foraging for Seniors.

    Is that the new Liberal Party work requirements for the pension?

    It isn’t yet, but we are READY!

    Anyway, it’s only until we are 70.

    Plus we picked up any litter and rubbish, hoping to demonstrate our worth as future supervisors of The Young Green Army.

  108. swamprat

    [Is this biblical proof that wealth redistribution policies dont work?]

    Wealth redistribution policies of (War Criminal) Howard have worked handsomely to make the rich, richer and the poor, poorer.

    So what are you whinging about ESJ?

  109. poroti

    swamprat

    That was most excellent .

  110. crikey whitey

    Helen Sykes.

    I am in Adelaide.

    We only have Magic Mushrooms!

  111. swamprat

    yes, it is, thanks poroti 🙂

  112. Tricot

    A new low point/high point tonight when we get have to resort to quotes from the Bible to support economics.

    I wonder if a Cost/Effective analysis was carried out by Noah?

    I wonder what the fish and bread vendors thought of the Feeding of the 5000 for gratis?

    The wine industry/wedding industry would be pretty dark about all this ‘water into wine’ stuff at Jewish weddings.

    The Almighty surely has a sense of humour though maybe economics was not his main concern?

  113. zoomster

    Well, Jesus said that tax should be paid, so I don’t think ESJ would have much time for him…

  114. zoidlord

    @2746

    Abbott promised us that anything over $100 million will be CBA’d….

  115. zoomster

    Actually, come to think of it, the story of the three servants encourages investment…

  116. Kinkajou

    I’ve invented a new word

    I call it plagiarism

  117. Steve777

    Re 2740: Judas calling for the expensive oil to be sold and the proceeds given to the poor. The guy’s obviously a communist.

  118. Kinkajou

    god this is sad…the cawing of vultures…

  119. Kinkajou

    thats how I picture ESJ anyhow….back to the teev I think

  120. swamprat

    zoomster

    [Well, Jesus said that tax should be paid, so I don’t think ESJ would have much time for him…]

    Liberals consider morality = anti-gay.

    Everything else is allowed. (especially, lies, corruption, fleecing the poor, giving benefits to my mates etc etc)

  121. AussieAchmed

    I don’t need to discuss the faults of my “team”. The Liberal shrills do enough of it for all of us.

    They are so pathetic, if Abbott complained that he had a flat tyre of his bike, it would be Labor’s fault

  122. Edwina StJohn

    Bible supports work for the dole:

    Thessalonians 3:10

    For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

  123. zoidlord

    @2756

    That sounds like politicians actually not doing their jobs.

    Because they are not willing to do the work.

  124. crikey whitey

    As referred to earlier in the PB day. You gotta laugh.

    Too many references to cite about this MOB. One will do.

    These scummies are the representative future of the Libs.

    The Australian

    Student gathering sees young Liberals at war

    Julie Hare
    The Australian
    May 30, 2012 12:00AM

    NO longer a battle ground between the Trotskyites and Stalinists, university campuses are now the scene of bitter factional battles between the hard Right and the rest of the Liberal Party.

    The annual general meeting of the University of NSW Liberal Club last Tuesday turned into farce as about 300 people from opposing sides crammed into a room hoping to influence the outcome. But to no avail. Only 10 people in the room, all acolytes of NSW heavyweight David Clarke, held voting rights.

    In the end, the club declared the results of the vote on its website. Ten nominations were received for nine positions and each received 10 votes.

    Video footage reveals the meeting descending into a chaotic scene with a fight only narrowly averted.

    Racial slurs can be heard in the background. Liberal staffers look on aghast before getting caught up themselves in the throng.

    The meeting was eventually shut down by university security staff.

    Tim Kaliyanda, 22, president of the University of NSW Student Representative Council, said he’d never seen anything like it.

    “I was there from the beginning and I didn’t see a vote being held. But the results have been released and all the positions were uncontested,” he said. “We saw people lining up to get credentialled to get on the voting list.”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/student-gathering-sees-young-liberals-at-war/story-e6frgcjx-1226373022707#

  125. mexicanbeemer

    Paul Murray on Sky is going right off, poor Tone is copping it, it would appear the only voice of support i can see was Terry McCrain in today’s HS

  126. poroti

    swamprat

    Y’all come back now ya hear !

  127. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    esj
    I do not believe in wealth redistribution. I believe in ripping it out of the rich b’tards hands and using it to fund the social wage. I believe in taxing them once, taxing them twice and taxing them until they bleed out like a trout caught in a boat propeller. I think it is best to start by assuming rich b’tards got that way by ripping off some poverty-stricken sods and by using miserable underhanded tactics to get someone else’s resources. If some rich b’tards can prove they or their forebears did not rip others off then they can be excluded from the filthy and despicable rich club.

    Wealth redistribution? pffft!

  128. mexicanbeemer

    Its true the family home should not be counted in the pension asset test but the investment income of $1.126 million cap should be reviewed maybe to $500,000 or $750,000

  129. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    zoomster,
    That it does. It encourages people to use their ‘talents’ and I take it from that premise, that people who destroy jobs, thereby preventing other people from using their own talents, are not being very godly.

  130. Jackol

    The family home should be counted as an asset because it is an asset.

  131. crikey whitey

    Oh. I forget.

    Someone here mentioned the Libs Facebook page. I had a look.

    Another laugh a minute.

    The posters going on about the Lib ‘policy.’

    It is amazing that Eadie, Rex and co. are not burnt out coping with all the derision.

    Still, at $2.00 a day, beggars can’t be choosers.

  132. Sir Pajama Pudding of Lake Disappointment

    What I dont understand is this: why doesnt anyone ask Abbott the obvious? As in “The PPL should be means tested, just like pensions. Please explain why it isnt subject to means testing”

    If hubby is a big earner or the family is asset rich, “fairness” would demand that eligibility should be determined in the same manner as pensions.

  133. crikey whitey

    Said! Puff!

  134. zoidlord

    @MB/2763

    $750k seems reasonable in this day in age.

  135. mexicanbeemer

    There is a funny side to Tone’s PPL, pretty much every women on $100k have little more than a Bachelor degree or an Estate Representative License.

    Yet Tone doesn’t seem very interested in education.

  136. Jackol

    The PPL should be means tested, just like pensions. Please explain why it isnt subject to means testing

    Means testing won’t fix the fundamental problem with the suggested PPL scheme.

    Whether the payout is capped or the payout is cut off above various levels, the PPL as it is structured at the moment (paid for out of government revenue) means that the benefit received is proportional to your income. No other benefit works like that.

    If it’s a workplace entitlement, as some suggest, then the employer pays it and there is no cap or threshold – it’s simply part of your salary package.

    If it’s a government funded benefit then there is no way it should increase with increasing income.

    It’s a frankenstein bits-of-this-bits-of-that thought bubble that cannot be redeemed by tinkering at the edges.

  137. zoomster

    ESJ

    Au contraire. That was Paul, not Jesus. Jesus said to take no thought for tomorrow, but to be like the lilies of the field – they toil not, and neither do they spin, but Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed as beautifully as they are.

  138. Tom the first and best

    I think that the means-tested minimum wage from the government with the ability for employers to top it up is the correct approach for paid parental leave. It should pay super and as it is leave, it should have leave loading (The usual 17.5%).

    I do think it should be at least 6 months, for each parent.

  139. mexicanbeemer

    Jachol

    The you will see people lose their pension, there are many places which today would be classed as high income that were formally working class

    Belmin, Surrey Hills, South Yarra, Richmond etc

  140. crikey whitey

    Noticed Lang Hancock’s beneficiary at Abbott’s lamentable address the other night.

    She must be doing okay. Even lashed out on a hair style and a number of gold coils around her necks.

  141. Tom the first and best

    2774

    Reverse mortgages are available as well as other options like downsizing and lodgers. Why should the government be subsidising inheritance? (Answer: it should not).

  142. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    I am not talking about inherit property but property that a person has owned during their working life being excluded from the asset test.

    Why should the government punish a worker from the benefits of their once working class suburb improving in value.

  143. Jackol

    Why should the government punish a worker from the benefits of their once working class suburb improving in value.

    If people can realize the wealth in their housing to support themselves then why should the government be providing them with welfare?

  144. Tom the first and best

    2777

    When people with owner occupier houses die, their houses get inherited. When have have been on the pension, the government has been subsidising that inheritance.

    That is like saying “why should the government punish people who get a job by taking away their dole payment”. If you own a house of significant value, you have an asset you can and should use to fund your retirement. The more the house is worth, the more you can get from it. Reverse mortgages mean that you can use your house to fund your retirement without moving out of it.

  145. mexicanbeemer

    Jackol

    If we want government to act only as a safety net we could but are we willing to apply the same standards across the board for example only funding schools in poor suburbs or roads in poor suburbs or hospitals in poor suburbs or police in poor suburbs while rich suburbs provide for themselves.

    I guess we could but where will there be an incentive for a community to improve and invest in itself.

    Government governs for everybody not just one section of the community.

  146. sceptic

    Jackol

    Why should the Government pay for anything?
    Why have Government, why have Society , Margaret Thatcher thought all were unnecessary.
    Why bother getting out of bed?

  147. Jackol

    mb –

    but are we willing to apply the same standards across the board for example only funding schools in poor suburbs or roads in poor suburbs or hospitals in poor suburbs or police in poor suburbs while rich suburbs provide for themselves.

    Unicorns as far as the eye can see.

    If you want a debate on public education or public health care, fine. We’re not debating those things, we’re debating a welfare payment.

    Government governs for everybody not just one section of the community.

    What a pointless thing to say.

  148. Jackol

    sceptic –

    Why should the Government pay for anything?

    Do you have something useful to contribute or are you going to make stupid comments as well as mb?

  149. mexicanbeemer

    Jachol

    Unicorns don’t exist

    *Sorry to any kids reading this*

  150. AussieAchmed

    mexicanbeemer

    Posted Wednesday, April 30, 2014 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    Its true the family home should not be counted in the pension asset test but the investment income of $1.126 million cap should be reviewed maybe to $500,000 or $750,000

    The people have spoken.

    They do not want to see the wealthy paying more. They supported Abbott, they supported the lowing of tax on superannuation for the wealthy earning $100,000 plus from the “super”.

    They were prepared to have this happen so that the low paid workers actually pay more tax on their “super” than they do on their weekly wage, while the wealthy pay less tax on their “super” than the low paid pay on their weekly wage. They are happy that cut this tax this cost the budget $16 billion

    They supported Abbott and the theft of taxpayer money through the FBT rorts that cost the budget $1.9 billion

    Because they currently have an unethical, unprofessional media that is content to do the bidding of Murdoch and blame Labor for everything, including Abbott lying and back flipping breaking election promises.

  151. sceptic

    Jackol

    No one ever changes there prejudiced views ..so trying to discuss the merits of society with Libertarians is just a waste of time.

  152. Jackol

    sceptic – perhaps you could explain how debating including the family home in an assets test for the old age pension is a “prejudiced view” of a “Libertarian”?

  153. mexicanbeemer

    Okay lets limit welfare to those who actually need it.

    DSP only for those with a disability and nothing else (mental illness is a medical condition not a disability)

    Aged pension only for people over 70 and are not capable of working part time

    Scrap all pensions concessions

    Howes that for a narrow minded welfare budget.

  154. zoidlord

    @2784

    I think you just upset EDJ.

  155. crikey whitey

    Looks like their shifts are over.

    We fought the good fight!

    Eeejits!

  156. AussieAchmed

    .Reverse mortgages mean that you can use your house to fund your retirement without moving out of it.

    That really helps the following generation.

    With everyone blaming the baby boomers for everything from the corns on their toes to Abbott lying it will now be the fault of baby boomers that the kids get no inheritance.

  157. AussieAchmed

    Why should the government be subsidising inheritance? (Answer: it should not).

    Perhaps you should point that out to Gina.

  158. mexicanbeemer

    Zoidy o dear better not tell ESJ about the Tooth Fairy and Santa.

  159. Tom the first and best

    2780

    Firstly, schools and other public services are not a welfare payment like the pension is.

    Secondly, schools are are a service to the children, not the parents. Most children do not have any significant income or assents to means-test.

    Thirdly, most public services are most efficiently and fairly delivered as public services. Charging for a service is a means of rationing something according to the ability and willingness of someone to pay for it. Do we want rich people to have better schools, hospitals, streets, and policing? I certainly don`t. Giving out money directly is different from a service.

  160. mexicanbeemer

    I think there is a big difference between Gina and the average worker passing on his/her property to their children.

    Gina doesn’t deserve any welfare or subsidies but is receiving plenty.

  161. gloryconsequence

    “Biblical proof”

    Classic.

  162. AussieAchmed

    Why should the government be subsidising inheritance? (Answer: it should not).

    Perhaps you should point that out to Gina.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmcqJZYCIAAO6lG.jpg

  163. sceptic

    Jackol

    ” If people can realize the wealth in their housing to support themselves then why should the government be providing them with welfare?”

    Because they have worked & paid tax , thankfully Labor initiated general Super to quarantine payments ( which is another form of tax), to prevent Liberal spivs squandering it on subsidies to miners & aluminium smelter owners.

  164. Tom the first and best

    2791

    People who get inheritances, of any significance, are often better off than those who do not before they get the inheritance and the inheritance just makes the gap bigger. Not leaving an inheritance is no crime.

  165. mikehilliard

    Young Libs are all yobs since way back. Any person under 500 years old that thinks the current Liberal guvmint has the clues has to be nuts.

    [“You put together some young passionate people, a little bit of the liquid amber and attractive ball gowns, and colourful incidents occur]

    Yeah right.

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/08/01/1122748579682.html

  166. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    No i have never argued for the rich to have better anything but i do think its unfair for a wealthy government to take advantage of a working class family who have benefited from their postcode increasing in value.

    Governments are not hard up for a dollar we already have a fair income tax system and for the most part workers are still able to come out ahead.

    Many pensioners in now expensive suburbs didn’t work with compulsory super.

    This situation will be different for your generation as it will have 30-50 years of work and i image the 9% will in time increase.

  167. Jackol

    Because they have worked & paid tax

    People don’t get paid a welfare payment “because they have worked and paid tax”.

  168. confessions

    The primary place of residence should always be exempt from pension asset tests.

  169. pedant

    Edwina St John: you shouldn’t go overboard on biblical truth: “He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.” Deuteronomy 23:1

  170. Sir Pajama Pudding of Lake Disappointment

    Libertarians are very similar to Tea Party nutters, especially USA-style Libertarians, who tie their bizzaro ideology to guns. Whinge whinge whinge about bureaucracy and “govt waste” (especially health and education services) but only too happy to accept govt handouts and use services/facilities provided by government. Even their hero Ayn Rand accepted welfare in the 6 years before her death.

  171. Tom the first and best

    2799

    The pension is not a tax refund. It is a welfare payment to make sure that everyone, who reaches retirement age, can retire if they want to and not be impoverished.

  172. DisplayName

    Someone kicked me in the nads once.

    I’m damned, it seems.

  173. mexicanbeemer

    True the aged pension is not just for those that have paid tax which is why those with investment income of over a million dollars shouldn’t be receiving it.

    Super will within a few generations remove the need for the aged pension but in the mean time we can’t just chuck out the current generation onto the scrap heap.

  174. Fulvio Sammut

    There seems to be some advantage from a biblical perspective, it seems, in keeping one’s pecker up, or at least on.

  175. Tom the first and best

    2802

    Saying “use you house to get retirement income” is not punishment. Do you not know what a reverse mortgage is?

  176. Sir Pajama Pudding of Lake Disappointment

    DSP is also means tested – includes all family assets/income except family home.

  177. Fulvio Sammut

    Yes, Tom, a passport to future misery.

  178. sceptic

    Jackol

    You prove the point about Libertarians…. they get paid from funds ( taxes) contributed during their working life.

    Taxes pay for the support of society, including infrastructure .
    My grand parents taxes payed for the roads you drive on, did they get a chance to ask for a refund or liquidise their (tax ) investment when they needed support at the end of a hard working life.
    As they benefited from the hard work & contributions of those that went before them.
    That’s what builds a society!

    If Liberians had any compassion they would concentrate on ensuring that welfare payments were covered by sustainable investments.

  179. pedant

    Does anyone know whether Senator “Bigots R’ Us” Brandeis and his little appointee Mr Wilson have yet condemned the appalling (from their perspective) attack by the US National Basketball Association on the God-given freedom of speech of the now banned-for-life owner of the LA Clippers?

  180. lefty e

    Well well well: mucho rumours of a spill against Abbott coming post-budget.

    Hockey PM by June?

  181. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    Yes i do and it should be an option where the circumstances suit.

    As Sir Pudding points out DSP also doesn’t include the family home in the asset test.

  182. Everything

    Peak Abbott #289?

  183. Tibor

    The crap some people are going on with about PPL has brought me out of lurkerdom for just this one post.

    Some basic principles:

    1. PPL is a workplace entitlement, not welfare. Therefore:

    Every worker should have access to PPL.
    The employer should pay for it
    It should be paid at the worker’s usual level of wage/salary, i.e. no means test and no cap on payments or eligibility

    I am gobsmacked and more than a little irritated to read ALP and Green posters argue against this as it is precisely what the union and women’s movement have been asking for for decades. Tony’s scheme is a dud because its trying to be both a work entitlement and a welfare benefit. However, if you accept that he cared more about winning the election than about good policy, you may also accept that by setting out to wedge the ALP, he’s somehow managed to adopt the core principles of a genuinely progressive policy, which of course he then proceeds to bastardise.

    2. The scheme should meet the need, therefore:

    For each child, the primary carer should be entitled to reasonable period of paid leave e.g. 3 months, with access to a further lengthy period of unpaid leave e.g. 9 months. Other carers should get a few weeks at most.

    There should be no cap on the number of times a person can access the entitlement.

    The scheme should be structured so that it dovetails with childcare on the person’s return to work.

    3. The scheme should be flexible, therefore:

    It can be accessed at half pay
    The primary carer can return as a part-timer if they wish
    Etc.

    4. The role of government should be minimal, therefore:

    It should legislate for PPL and either step away, except to enforce the law, or act as a kind of banker or insurance company to collect the levy and pay it back out when a person accesses their entitlement. This would allow the goverment to assist smaller enterprises as they would not need to have the cash on hand and would have no further liability than to pay the levy each period.

    If the government wishes to add to this scheme, such as an extra payment to low income earners, then it can do so, but the benefit should be means tested.

    Over and out.

  184. deblonay

    PICTURES OF RIGHT-WING DEMONSTRATORS IN LIVIV IN UKRAINE A FEW DAYS AGO
    CELEBRATING THE FORMATION IN 1943 OF THE UKR.SS TO SUPPORT THE NAZIS
    ___________________
    http://rt.com/news/155364-ukraine-nazi-division-march/

  185. mikehilliard

    Back in my day all the politically aware joined green peace or direct action. They had the best parties + chance of sex. At the risk of total social exclusion no one touched the young libs.

    What is more frightening now is the lack of political concern that young people have & how ready they are to perhaps vote for the Lib agenda. The Libs have money on the ‘its all about me’ stuff so you can hardly blame them.

    I could blame the parents for not engendering more socialist ideals but then again my bunch are all Lib voters & I came out the wrong way. Well at least in their eyes.

  186. sceptic

    Sir Pajama Pudding of Lake Disappointment

    No Libertarians are just self indulgent w***ers, acolytes of the Aspergers suffering Ayn Rand.

  187. Everything

    Bob Hoskins dead apparently…

  188. Tom the first and best

    2809

    Superannuation will not remove the need for the aged pension. On current forecasts it will not even significantly reduce the proportion of the population on the pension (tightening up the means-test would help change that though). It will only switch a few percent from the full pension to the part pension. The tax concessions are biggest for those who get no pension at all and non-existent for the other end of the spectrum. Also a significant number of people who get their super do not use it for retirement income but spend it up in a few years.

    Better targeted tax concessions (more tax concessions for the poorer workers, less for the rich), a tighter means-test and a ban on lump some withdrawal (probably with an exemption for mortgage repayment) would help reduce the proportion of the population on the pension but there will always be people on the pension.

  189. Everything

    Onya Tibor! 🙂

  190. guytaur

    Things are bad for Abbott. Lateline has Kennett on to give him a kicking

  191. guytaur

    “@abcnews: #BREAKING: British actor Bob Hoskins has died age 71, his publicist says.”

  192. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    That may be true but one of the reasons for Super originally at least was to do away with the aged pension.

    Agree about the need to do more for the super of lower income workers.

  193. Tom the first and best

    2817

    Non-aged pensions are different. They are, mostly, not inheritance subsidies. Disability pensioners should be able to own homes.

  194. Rossmore

    So who leaked the debt levy? Is Cabinet split?

    There is clearly a power play within the Cabinet in Confidence Expenditure Review Committee. There are just five members of ERC – Abbott, Truss, Hockey, Dutton and Cormann.

    I suspect it’s the economic dries who leaked, (Hockey and Cormann). They’d been rolled on Graincorp and Qantas. I suspect they wanted the Diesel Fuel Rebate on the table as a weak form of Industry Welfare. Truss bitterly opposed this as a National. I suspect it was Abbott who grabbed at the debt levy as ameans of retaining his PPL and appeasing the Nats. He was even prepared to water down his beloved PPL in the hope it would survive the party room.

    Hockey and Corman were horrified. They had to get the levy off the table, but how? They could read the politics wouldnt go down well – so they arranged for the leak so that maximum pressure could be exerted before the final Budget decisions are signed off.

    I suspect the upshot of all this will be a watered down debt levy to save abbott’s face, a watered down reduction in the diesel fuel rebate and as we already know a watered down and compromised PPL. All presented in terms of all will suffer pain.

    A classic ERC compromise and a sign that the Cabinet is bitterly at odds with itself. Shows too that though Hockey is weak, he’s prepared to use all the levers at his disposal, including the strategic leak.

    All pure speculation of course ….

  195. Tom the first and best

    2828

    It is true.

    Getting rid of the pension was always a pipe dream.

  196. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    so a worker doesn’t deserve to benefit from his home but a disabled person can keep his/her home.

    Wonder where that leaves the disabled person who works without ever going on DSP.

  197. confessions

    Who is Bob Hoskins?

  198. guytaur

    @guardian: US intercepts Moscow’s calls to spies in Ukraine, Kerry says in leaked remarks http://t.co/6R1rt0JINH

  199. Sir Pajama Pudding of Lake Disappointment

    Some basic principles:

    1. PPL is a workplace entitlement, not welfare. Therefore:

    Every worker should have access to PPL.
    The employer should pay for it

    The last line is the problem, yes?
    Once it is a payment from Govt, it IS welfare.
    Therefore the eligibility criteria should be no different from other welfare. Completely different scenario if employer pays. But that isnt the case with Abbott’s PPL.

  200. mikehilliard

    [Onya Tibor!]

    Such accolade.

    Really, a progressive policy? I always thought inequality was regressive.

  201. victoria

    Watched Sky channel earlier. Janet Albrechtsen was on panel with Paul Murray. It dies indeed apoear tgat Abbott has burnt hus bridges with the party. His leadership is precarious

  202. guytaur

    confessions

    Been in lots of movies. He was the human in “Who Framed Roger Rabbit”

  203. victoria

    Apologies for the typos

  204. guytaur

    Kennett on kicking Abbott now. Starting with debt tax

  205. mikehilliard

    fess

    [Who is Bob Hoskins?]

    Actor who did some good films in his time, like Mona Lisa.

  206. zoidlord

    Even if it is a workplace entitlement, Hockey said the Age of Entitlement must end, isn’t this a conflict?

  207. DisplayName

    PPL. Deja vu. No new points made from anyone. Will sit this one out.

  208. Tom the first and best

    2832

    Retired workers can benefit from their home, with a reverse mortgage or downsizing or other such scheme, disability pensioners over retirement age should also have their family home included in the means-test.

  209. victoria

    Rossmore

    Speaking of the diesel fuel rebate. Word is the mining industry have already said that if this is tampered with, it will be more costly to them than the mining tax, and they will fight the govt on this.

  210. confessions

    A lot of older people have only their own home as their only asset. They are cash poor yet perhaps asset rich.

    You want to include their home in the asset test for the pension? You are consigning them to further poverty.

    And really, who the hell wants to be 75 years old and renting FFS?

  211. liyana

    Tom, my mother is a pensioner and the thought of a reverse mortgage or anything that hints of debt puts her into a permanent state of panicked stress…..and of course effects her health…and she’s not alone – I just want her and others like her to be left in peace in their own home- and yes I know she would be OK with a reverse mortgage but try explaining that to her..

    An inheritance tax would be a preferable solution..I’m happy to pay that if necessary..

  212. Rossmore

    Is this a Jeff for Canberra pitch?

  213. Jackol

    Kennett is absolutely mad.

    Just abolish penalty rates! So easy!

  214. guytaur

    victoria got rid of Kennett just in time. He was going to abolish penalty rates

  215. mikehilliard

    After all the air given here on Abbotts new tax etc etc & the article in Crikey today who really believes its all more than a fishing trip.

    [Prime Minister Tony Abbott may imply journalists are making it up — as he did on 3AW yesterday —  but the sideshow is mostly planned. Through a series of drops, a few unavoidable leaks, a studied refusal to rule things in or out, until the press conferences doing exactly that as we near the second Tuesday in May, governments control and shape the narrative around their books.]

  216. Tom the first and best

    2847

    A lot of effort explaining the measure would need to be taken.

    Inheritance should also be subject to tax.

  217. mexicanbeemer

    Tom so in other words you are saying to the workers on moderate income guess what you workers there spending your lives working with the hope of leaving your children better off are working for nothing as after you have paid off the mortgage we will make you take out a reverse mortgage which will see the benefits go to the banks rather than the workers children.

  218. guytaur

    “@Quiet__Please: Is Jeff auditioning to replace HG Nelson?

    #lateline
    #auspol”

  219. Bushfire Bill

    Kennett now making the case on Lateline that you can promise anything, break the promise immediately after an election, and not have to cop anything at all as electoral punishment.

    After three years of vilifying Labor for minor promises broken (they WERE minor, just trumped up as major), these bastards have the hide to say electoral promises, not just made, but repeated ad nauseam before and after election, backed up with further promises that the original promises will never be broken, are now disposable, aspirational, vapourware.

    F**k me dead, these people have hides thicker than Jesse the Elephant.

  220. AussieAchmed

    Raving about someone having a home that they live in being worth over a million dollars so their pension should be chopped.

    Yet some earning $100,000 a year in interest on their superannuation should pay less tax….to earn $100,000 on superannuation a person need between $1,5-2 million in their account

  221. mexicanbeemer

    Tom
    Maybe the government should stop funding universities and make the students pay the full cost.

  222. guytaur

    “@swearyanthony: Look, with a Victorian election later this year, I think the Liberals need to get Kennett out and on TV more. Total vote winner.”

  223. zoidlord

    @2857

    Good idea, perhaps we will get those Young Sydney Liberals off people’s backs too.

  224. mexicanbeemer

    Zoidy

    Its actually a terrible idea but the point i am trying to make is government could go off the deep end and cut spending to only the bare basics which would have many adverse impacts.

    Although those Lib students should pay their way.

  225. mexicanbeemer

    AA

    People earning that level of investment income should be asked to move off the pension.

  226. liyana

    Tom you speak of pensioners as if they are cyphers or numbers and not people. Downsizing? Reverse mortgages? Many older people want to stay in their communities near their families and in places where they have access to good medical facilities. in Sydney this means staying in areas with houses worth around a million…because in Sydney almost every bloody house is worth around a million..

  227. Jackol

    Kennett now making the case on Lateline that you can promise anything, break the promise immediately after an election, and not have to cop anything at all as electoral punishment.

    Yeah Kennett wants politicians to act as if they made no promises before the election.

    Well, the politicians should stop making promises then.

    The point about the system we have of elections in this country is that the parties are supposed to give the voters information about what they are planning to do. If promises mean nothing, ever, then what are people voting on? The vibe?

    I understand Kennett’s frustration with the system. I think the system is broken too – politicians are scared of speaking plainly about their plans because of the over-the-top media/public feedback. But that’s the problem – politicians have to start being courageous enough to be honest up front. Promise what they’re willing to promise. Don’t promise what they’re not willing to deliver on.

    We shouldn’t stop holding parties to account for not honouring their promises. We should start being more tolerant and more open to what politicians say that may (in the current atmosphere) be risky for politicians.

  228. mexicanbeemer

    Jackol

    Agree we do put too much focus on election promises and should be more open to changing circumstances which do require changes in policies.

  229. Tom the first and best

    2853

    The reverse mortgage providers are not getting anything for free, they pay, then they get the home at the end.

    It is not the government`s job to make some people children better off than others, which is what inheritance subsidisation does. The government`s job it to make life better for everyone children, equally.

  230. Rossmore

    There were no cast iron commitments about not reducing the diesel fuel rebate. I reckon the LNP made so many promises about not doing things that anything they didn’t promise not to do is ipso facto now on the table.

    Reducing the diesel fuel rebate would infuriate the Nats, miners and farmers but once the decision was made they’d make do and the voting public wouldn’t be much bothered.

    Kennett was right about going hard early. That was the problem with the mining tax. A weak compromise at the end of the day.

  231. zoidlord

    @2860,

    Yes it was mearly a joke…. at Young Libs expense.

    In-regards to Bob Hoskins, best known for his roles in Super Mario Bros. and Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

  232. Bushfire Bill

    [In-regards to Bob Hoskins, best known for his roles in Super Mario Bros. and Who Framed Roger Rabbit.]

    And of course The Long Good Friday as well as his chilling portrayal of Kruschev at Stalingrad, in Enemy At The Gates

  233. Fulvio Sammut

    So, a disabled, and now retired 61 year old, with a 55 year old wife, takes on a reverse mortgage over their $450000 family home (their only significant asset) for $120000.

    They use the money to pay off the balance of their existing mortgage, $75000, buy a $15000 car to see them through, give $20000 to their only son to help him with his deposit to buy his own home, and spend the rest of the money ($10000) together with a couple of thousand dollars of their meagre savings to renovate their dilapidated kitchen and bathroom (son helps, together with a couple of his tradie mates, with the labour).

    Sounds plausible? Good.

    Now the $120000 is all gone.

    At an interest rate of 9% pa (give or take) the debt doubles every 10 years approximately.

    Our disabled pensioner mate lives on another 25 years and then karks it, leaving his 80 year old wife still in excellent health, but in a dump of a house now worth land value only, no car, and a reverse mortgage over her head of $720000.

    She lives on another 5 years (Reverse mortgage debt now $935000) and needs hip and knee surgery, dentures, a pace maker and by the way, permanent care in a high care nursing facility for which a substantial up front payment is required.

    Son has by now pissed off with his third wife to somewhere in NZ.

    If it wasn’t for the reverse mortgage, from which she and her late partner benefited little, she could have sold her land for $700-900000 (at then market value) paid for her ongoing care and medicals, and have had a comfortable nest egg left in the bank for future emergencies and contingencies.

    As it is, she’s a pauper, having followed Tom’s excellent advice.

  234. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    Well on those those grounds it isn’t the taxpayers job to fund a select group of kids uni education.

  235. Tom the first and best

    2862

    Reverse mortgages allow people to stay in their own homes, without moving, and still derive an income from it.

    Downsizing is not for everyone and smaller housing (those that do not want to downsize can get a reverse mortgage or take lodgers or some other means of turning their home into income) is usually cheaper than larger housing (of the same standard) in the same area.

  236. Rossmore

    Whatever happens with the Budget, Abbott is very seriously diminished as PM. He looks weak, the narrative is all over the place. Its credibility as a no surprises Government that keeps its promises, shot to pieces. And the beauty of it, entirely self-inflicted.

  237. guytaur

    Another bad day for Abbott 🙂

    Goodnight

  238. Tom the first and best

    2870

    Society benefits from having university educated people in it. If the government does not fund university education then the children of the rich get an even more disproportionate proportion of access to university.

  239. briefly

    [2819…Tibor]

    Since this would rely on pooled, compulsory, universal contributions, it would resemble other forms of social insurance, like unemployment or sickness benefits or Super Guarantee Contributions. It may be administered through workplaces, but would be a social insurance scheme – or employment-related welfare, for want of another term.

    However, the result if tying such support to employment status is to ensure that different women – and their children – receive markedly different financial benefits.

    This would particularly disadvantage lone mothers when compared to partnered mothers.

    The employment rates of mothers vary considerably with the age of their children and according to whether they are coupled or lone mothers. Mothers are least likely to be in employment when they are lone and when their youngest child is aged 0-4. Such mothers were only about 35% likely to be in employment in 2008. By contrast partnered mothers whose youngest child is aged 0-4 were slightly more than 50% likely to be in employment. Partnered mothers whose youngest child was aged 10-14 in 2008 were nearly 80% likely to be in employment.

    http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/pubs/rp48/rp48.pdf‎

    This excellent study also observes…

    [Levels of human capital are an important factor here, as mothers with higher levels of human capital, measured in terms of education or work experience, are more competitive in the labour market, and therefore able to find employment in jobs with better paid and/or working conditions. Lone mothers are at a disadvantage in this respect, given their relatively low levels of human capital (Harding et al., 2005). This is evidenced by the finding that employed lone mothers of young children are more likely to be employed in casual jobs and jobs of lower occupational status, and less likely to have access to family-friendly work arrangements than couple mothers (Baxter, Gray, Alexander, Strazdins, & Bittman, 2007).

    These findings indicate that lone mothers are likely to face disproportionately higher rates of movement out of employment. However, if turnover in these jobs is relatively high, we can perhaps also expect that mothers seeking lower status or casual jobs may be able to move into these jobs more easily than mothers seeking higher status, permanent positions, for which turnover is lower. Of particular importance is whether higher turnover in casual or low-paid jobs is driven by employees or by employers. It is plausible that mothers with lower levels of human capital may be at greater risk of being subject to employer-driven turnover, and therefore being less able to leave or take up employment at a time that matches their needs.]

  240. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    And with that you open a nice loophole as the old person will just transfer the house to the kids name, will only need to find about 5k for the conveyancing solicitor

  241. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    Society benefits from workers being able to pass their house onto their children.

  242. Thomas. Paine.

    The usefulness of a reverse mortgage depends on your age and how long you are gonna live.

    I guess if you needed to go into a retirement home or nursing home at some stage, and you needed to get yourself hands on some lump some cash, you could reverse mortgage, rent the property when you went into a nursing/retirement home ….

  243. Rossmore

    So we’ve had

    – leaks from within the highest levels of the LNP Gov,

    – threats of party room revolts,

    – senior elders of the party being vocal in their criticism (Kennet and Fraser),

    – u turns on Gonski and various other broken promises

    – corruption scandals in the NSW party that have tainted the fed LNP (Sinodinos)

    – goodies and baddies Foreign Policy

    – granted, no boats

    – and the LNP tanking in the polls

    One does wonder when the MSM will twig that sometimes their job is to join the dots

  244. mexicanbeemer

    TP

    Hence why it is important to consider the person’s circumstances before entering into a reverse mortgage.

  245. Tom the first and best

    2869

    That is not the kind of reverse mortgage I am talking about. I am talking about a reverse mortgage where the reverse mortgage provider pays the reverse mortgagee a regular payment and then gets the house when they die.

  246. zoidlord

    Looks like TheOz and the liberals attacking those who are living overseas:
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/youre-paying-100m-for-pensioners-to-live-overseas/story-e6frg6n6-1226901383832

    When I have proof (as have others) it actually costs less for these people move overseas.

    Example 1:

    http://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/international/policy/portability-of-australian-income-support-payments

  247. Fulvio Sammut

    Thomas Paine, the last of you and your spouse vacating the property technically triggers an act of Default and the reverse mortgagee calls in the reverse mortgage and sells the property to recover its then debt.

    No possibility for the mortgagor to rent it out as a means of earning income.

  248. Tom the first and best

    2878

    How?

    People who inherit houses are generally better off than the rest of the population before they inherit them. Life expectancy is such these days that the rest of the population before they inherit the house.

  249. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    The social wage is not welfare. It includes welfare. Welfare to the social wage is as a pylon to a bridge. To interchange the two terms is a show of ignorance.

  250. Tom the first and best

    2884

    Depending on the terms of the reverse mortgage. It would be quite reasonable to regulate that all new reverse mortgages last until the recipients die.

  251. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    This conversation is centered around you wanting would be pensioner to take out a reverse mortgage rather than take a pension which transfers the benefit to the banks rather than to the workers children.

    Ít reduces the benefit to society just as reducing access to university does.

    The rich will still be able to get around it by simply transferring title to the children before the older person reaches pension age.

    It only costs 5k to fill out the paperwork.

  252. deblonay

    TONIGHT WAS VINTAGE KENNET
    ______________________
    For those who missed him aa Premier or were to young to remember this was the old Jeff many of us hated so much
    My wife said it gave her the creeps…like a time machine taking us back to the 90ies

    But Abbott is in trouble…big trouble…Kennett by his attack proves it …and he represents those Liberals who are sick of waiting for Abbott’s atttack on everything.. But they forget he has a hostile Senate and it will get no better…and then there’s Palmer…and it’s not the 90ies
    ..and all that Middle class welfare that Howard did so well will trouble Abbott when he comes to chop it down(which is what Kennett wants)

    But I repeat,,,Kennet shows that Abbott is in the poo…and so soon… great times ..and Vintage Kennett who seemed almost possessed by some spirit ..so wild was he

  253. Fulvio Sammut

    Banks don’t work that way, Tom. they are not charities or welfare providers.

    On an actuarial basis they must make a profit or they won’t be in it.

  254. mexicanbeemer

    Heaven forbid we ever have a serious bank bust.

  255. mexicanbeemer

    Regarding Tone lets just hope these public attacks don’t allow him an excuse to go soft which all the media talking heads will celebrate as common sense prevailing.

  256. Bushfire Bill

    Love some of the rationalizations coming in tonight.

    Abbott makes it all seem so easy to “fix” everything… hundreds of policies ready to go, fully costed, adults about to take over, axe the tax, stop the boats, support health, education, care for the diasbled fully, “unity tickets” etc. etc.

    Then, when the shit hits the fan, his mates go into bat for him telling us how BAD it all turned out to be, how DIFFICULT the task ahead of us truly is, how “the national interest” demands that he ditch all his promises, it supercedes everything,… promises? What are promises? Just breaths of air, here today, gone tomorrow. As Abbott himself puts it, “That was then. This is now.”

    “It’s sometimes better to seek forgiveness than ask permission” is another one of his aphorisms, his little pearls of wisdom. So he invents the crazy, inverse eligibility PPL scheme. He brings back knighthoods. He dreams up levies. He tries to rob schools of what not only Gillard but HE himself promised them. Then he backflips.

    No poor sod know WHAT he’s doing. He’s had more policies than AMP. They are ditched, or reinforced, then ditched anyway, at his own whim.

    He’s running a rabble. TWO WEEKS before the Budget is due his big ace in the hole, the Deficit Levy, goes belly up. He’s now ditching his PPL scheme. He gets Mark Simkin to waffles about how Abbott is making sacrifices…. sacrifices only of pride, not of any substance whatsoever, if truth be told.

    He promised – there’s that word… “promised” – “No surprises. No excuses.” He’s been bloody-well making excuses, parsing his own words, playing games with the people who voted for him, since day bloody #1.

    He’s fouled his own, and his government’s nest with his maniacal promises, his hubris, his mistaken belief that Rupert Murdoch will save him every time and his outright lies.

    And no comes the “forgiveness”bit.

    He told us he wouldn’t seek it. There’d be no excuses. But he’s seeking it anyway. The man has no guts, no class and not a shred of decency or honesty left in him (and that’s if he ever had any).

    Any halfwit could have seen that he was a bullshit artist, right from the start. The punters were warned, but like mugs falling for a Nigerian scam, they convinced themselves that it was going to be the other poor, dumb bastard who got swindled by the slogans, the intimidation, the wrecking and the lies.

    Now we find his party rorted the system of political donations to get the money it needed to print those crappy brochures and make those false promises. The whole thing has been exposed as an empty shell of deceit, venality, cronyism and outright criminality.

    He – and his party who followed him – brought this precisely upon themselves. They deserve no credit or sympathy, no understanding or cutting of slack in their favour. Their biggest promise was that they would keep their promises, and they have delivered practically the opposite, making the excuses they said they would never make and springing the surprises they said they would never spring.

    It’s no good to talk about what’s good for the country when the people talking about it are a bunch of pimps and spivs, cynically using the people’s trust as their disposable plaything, then getting all noble and emotional, appealing to national pride and honour, when they are found out.

    THEY are the dishonourable ones. THEY took on the responsibility for running the country. And they’ve f**ked it, f**ked themselves and f**ked us all roundly and squarely.

    They asked for no sympathy by promising “no excuses”. So be it. Let them at least stick to THAT promise and take the consequences they tols us they would deserve if they broke it.

  257. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    Reverse mortgaging the family home to pay for the aged pension is a way of asset-stripping a person before they die. It is a form of death tax once favoured by the socialists/left to break up the fortunes of the upper classes, imo. It is now being used to take the resources of the middle-class and make sure their kids have nothing to inherit.

    It is funny how socialist ideas end up in the policies of the
    conservatives.

  258. Tom L

    Re asset tests and primary residences. As with any inheritance tax it would make sense to include any value in the primary residence exceeding (say) $800k in the asset test. Then someone who’s lucked into owning a million dollar house in a former working class area won’t be pinged too much (assuming they haven’t also ‘lucked’ into owning a couple of investments too), but Mr and Mrs Cottesloe who’ve arranged their finances so the bulk of their assets are in a $5 million home aren’t going to receive the pension.

    We’re looking at the extremes here; the idea is to treat both ends fairly and still have a sensible rule for the middle.

    As for tricky transfers to children, it would usually be pretty transparent and easily legislated around, and the prospect of trusting one’s children to do the right thing for the rest of one’s life would probably put a lot of people off the idea anyway.

  259. Fulvio Sammut

    Well, we almost did, Beemer, but a couple of guys called Rudd and Swan saved us.

  260. Tom the first and best

    2888

    The reverse mortgage provider pays for the home with the reverse mortgage, the children do not pay under pension exempting the family home from the means test. If the children, or anyone else, want to pay instead of a financial institution then I have no problem with that (there is a system like that in France).

    The greater rate of taxation of a non-owner-occupier home would significantly reduce the benefit of title transfer.

    The rich can be got at with inheritance and gift taxes.

  261. deblonay

    Bendigo Bank offers a different scheme I understand from a neighbour,in which you take a parcentage of the value of the ome…say 20% in cash and contract to pay the bank say 27% when you sell the house or it’s sold after death
    The residue is the owners or estates…no interest payments and as real estate rises generally it seems a better scheme tha the reverse mortages
    Called I think Home Sacings and =different from the reverse mortage schemes
    Has anyoine heard of it

  262. DisplayName

    briefly, from Tibor’s post
    [… If the government wishes to add to this scheme, such as an extra payment to low income earners, then it can do so, but the benefit should be means tested.]

    Regarding your point, a properly implement PPL (not Abbott’s) will not magically add more money to the pot for mothers enjoying greater employment. What it will do is force businesses to *factor in an additional human cost of employment along with, for example, mental and physical health.

    In other words it forces forward planning. Businesses must account for the possibility that their employees will have children – just as they must account for the possibility of sickness or fatigue – they cannot leave it up to random chance.

    *or, if you like, force them to value an additional aspect of human life. Assuming, of course, that we *do* value that aspect.

  263. zoidlord

    Tony Abbott has LIED!

    http://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/international/policy/portability-of-australian-income-support-payments

    “Yearly expenditure on Australia’s pension payments to recipients of Australian income support payments living overseas amounts to $692 million (June 2012). At the same time, pensions from overseas being paid to Australian pensioners residing in Australia totalled $1,484 million (June 2012). This represents a significant inflow of funds into Australia, an increase in disposable income for pensioners and a saving for Australian taxpayers. This is shown in Figure 1.”

  264. Tom the first and best

    2890

    It is not charity or welfare. A reverse mortgage provider takes money it has for investing, gives a payment to the homeowners based on the value of their home and their life expectancy (on an actuarial basis so the risk is spread, like with insurance) and then gets and sells the home when the owners die. 100% business.

  265. Fulvio Sammut

    No shit, Sherlock!!

  266. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    There are easily ways of taxing the rich than trying to limit property transfer

    The more you try all you do is make it harder for the workers while the rich will continue to carry on.

    Changes to the treatment of investment income in the asset test will bring far better results.

    The government is not on struggle street and if it really was then there are a number of ways of correcting that, AA has identified something like 25-30 billion.

  267. Fulvio Sammut

    2902 referred to Zoidy’s disclosure that Abbott has lied.

  268. deblonay

    Kennett doesn’t believe in policies or promises

    He is a real neo-Lib-economnist…our only true-Thatcherite
    and showed it in office…and when he says people came to appreciate his work in office…he fails to mention that he was defeated in a major swing AGAINST THOSE POLICES ….WHEN PEOPLE REALLY GOT TERRIBLY PISSED OF AND REVOLTED
    FORGETFUL OLD JEFF
    TONY JONES SHOULD HAVE ASKED ABOUT THAT !!!

  269. Fulvio Sammut

    But Tom, if it’s done universally on a Bank-must-win-in-the-end basis, the amount the bank will pay periodically to each of it’s “superannuants” will be less than an income capable of adequately supporting them.

    Oh, never mind.

  270. briefly

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-30/economy-in-u-s-stalls-as-business-investment-exports-drop.html

    [The U.S. economy barely grew in the first quarter as harsh winter weather chilled investment and exports dropped. The expansion stalled even as consumer spending on services rose by the most in 14 years.

    Gross domestic product grew at a 0.1 percent annualized rate from January through March, compared with a 2.6 percent gain in the prior quarter, figures from the Commerce Department showed today in Washington….

    Business investment dropped at a 2.8 percent annualized rate, the weakest print since the fourth quarter of 2009. Part of that reflected a smaller gain in inventories that cut 0.6 percentage point from growth.

    Exports declined 7.6 percent, exceeding the decrease in imports and pushing the trade gap up to $414.4 billion from $382.8 billion in the fourth quarter. Trade subtracted another 0.8 percentage point from GDP.

    Government expenditures also decreased, led by cuts in federal military outlays and by state and local agencies.]

  271. Jackol

    Tom L at 2895:
    Good post.

    We’re looking at the extremes here; the idea is to treat both ends fairly and still have a sensible rule for the middle.

    I absolutely agree.

  272. zoidlord

    @2907

    I thought Mod Lib said it was all good in good old USA?

  273. Tom the first and best

    2903

    Taxing inheritance and gifts (of significant financial value) is one of the best ways of getting at the rich, along with wealth tax. Its biggest hole is tax havens (a reason why a world government is needed). It should also be part of income tax so that people on higher incomes who inherit pay more tax on the inheritance than those on low incomes who inherit.

  274. DisplayName

    Further to 2899.

    They will most likely to this, of course, by reflecting that value in the price of their products, and so force those additional considerations onto their customers. Which, assuming those customers voted in favour of formalising those values, is the desired effect. They should be happy to take into consideration those things they themselves voted for.

    Abbott’s PPL does this not at all, or poorly at best.

  275. Tom the first and best

    2906

    The more valuable the home, the more that the reverse mortgage will pay and the more the means test will cut the pension. It the reverse mortgage and the super are not enough there will be a part pension.

  276. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    People pay enough income tax, the only people that work for government are public servants, everyone else is not working for the government but themselves and their families and that includes those that do actually work for the government.

  277. mexicanbeemer

    Maybe Kids from well heeled suburbs should pay 100% of the cost of their university place.

  278. Fulvio Sammut

    Under your philosophy Tom it would be far simpler for a Government to sequestrate all private property and provide subsistence payments to all its citizens in equal measure.

    I believe the experiment has been tried before.

  279. Tom the first and best

    2913

    You are thinking about inheritance from the point of view of those providing the inheritance. That sort of attitude is favorable to the very rich because not taxing inheritance, which is a form of mainly unearned income for the inheritor, spread their wealth across the generations.

  280. Tom the first and best

    2914

    Wealth is individual not suburban. Means-tests should be individual, not by suburb.

  281. Tom the first and best

    2915

    I am talking about taxing inheritance, not banning it.

    I am not talking about requiring all incomes to be equal. If you work more, or more valuably, you should get paid more.

  282. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    I invite you to tell the average tradie or office worker that they work for the government.

    I wonder what their response will be.

    If you want to tax the rich then charge them 100% of their children’s university place.

    By doing that you are hitting the source of their employability hence the key to their high income potential

  283. mexicanbeemer

    Tom if it is okay to tax based on postcode then charging for university by postcode is surely fair enough as well.

  284. DisplayName

    Taxing people based on postcode sounds like a bad idea. What are the side effects? Ghettoisation?

  285. Tom the first and best

    2919

    Inheritance taxation is not “working for the Government”. With inheritance taxation, they still get the money, they just have to pay tax on it. Workers pay tax on the income they get from working, it is thus unreasonable to workers not to make inheritors pay tax on money they inherit.

    University education is not a service to the parent, but a service to the student. If the parent(s) or other wealthy relative or friend, charge gift tax.

  286. Tom the first and best

    2920

    Means-testing owner-occupier housing is not tax based on postcode, it is a means-test based on actual realisable asset value.

  287. DisplayName

    Ttfab, fair enough. I was just going off the post immediately prior to mine.

  288. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    Your reverse mortgage idea is aimed at pensioners yet you are not willing to have the same treatment for university places.

    The children of the rich pretty much always go to university, if you survey people in white collar jobs above 80k a year they pretty much all have at least one bachelor degree, some industries require a lower level qualification but even so most will have at least one bachelor.

    You are arguing that a pensioner should have their home included in the asset test which will discriminate against working class people who have seen their once working class suburb become expensive.

    So on one hand you are happy to limit the opportunities for working class families to pass their family home onto their children but allow rich kids to go to uni which leads to them enjoying higher incomes.

  289. mexicanbeemer

    Should have added go to university subsided by those that don’t go to university.

  290. Tom the first and best

    2925 & 2926

    Means-testing students against their own assets and income is an idea with merit as is applying a gift tax when someone else (like their parents or grandparents) pay. That will effect the rich.

  291. mexicanbeemer

    Tom

    Nice but students can take out a loan and the rest is sent off to the government while its possible for a kid to be living with his/her rich parents and still receive heavily subsides university place which leads to them obtaining high paying job.

    While you will still be slugging the children of the working class who have benefited from years of hard work.

  292. Tom the first and best

    Parents do not have to be rich to let their children live with them, just not more than a bit poor. Gift tax should also be applied to parents who send their children to private schools. If the student takes out a loan, they have to pay it back. The wealthy get the advantage by the parents paying and thus not leaving them with the debt.

    Parents are children are separate people with separate identities and tax and means-test liabilities. You need to remember that.

  293. B.C.

    A university education offers social and economic benefits to society, as well as to the individual. In the vast majority of cases the subsidy an individual receives in obtaining a tertiary education will be paid back many times over in increased tax payments due to their higher post-graduation income. Then there are the other potential gains to society and the economy in having a better educated workforce.
    While it makes some sense for there to be some form of copayment (e.g. HECS), it should not be at such a level as to discourage tertiary education.

  294. mexicanbeemer

    B.C

    There is no disputing that and that isn’t the issue, we have Tom wanting to include the family home in the pension asset test and recommends would be pensioners take out a reverse mortgage.

    Tom has the view that the rich should pay more tax, now this brings us to university, if we want to tax the rich then one of the easiest ways is too increase university fees for kids of rich people remembering as you point out the benefits that come from a degree.

    Of course i don’t agree with Tom in regards to placing the family home in the pension asset test as the pensioner as in my view learn the right to benefit from that property.

    Just as i think the first bachelor degree should be covered by the government for the reasons you mentioned.

    As i know Tom has previously been to uni i am trying to explain to Tom in a language that as a student he would understand as i don’t think Tom understands what it would do to a person to be told after working all their lives that they no longer could benefit from their hard work because the government viewed them as rich.

  295. Jackol

    mb –

    to be told after working all their lives that they no longer could benefit from their hard work because the government viewed them as rich.

    So why do we have an asset test at all? Some people ‘benefit from their hard work’ with the result that they have a big share investment portfolio, or large term deposits. But if they have these things and they exceed the asset test thresholds then ‘the government views them as rich’.

    Strangely that is ok for other assets, but not the family home, and you have never explained why that makes sense.

    Of course there are particular issues specific to the family home, but you’re not arguing those issues, you’re arguing this spurious “they worked hard all their lives” crapola.