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Federal Politics 2013-

Jun 19, 2014

BludgerTrack: 53.5-46.5 to Labor

In lieu of any substantial shifts on voting intention to report this week, a closer look at Palmer United's recent dip in the polls.

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The latest batch of polling from Newspoll, Morgan and Essential has had the effect of confirming the shift recorded in last week’s BludgerTrack result, in which a Morgan phone poll drove a slight weakening in Labor’s post-budget lead. Consequently, there are only very slight shifts in this week’s primary vote and two-party preferred totals, with the latter moving to the Coalition by 0.3%. On the seat projection, the Coalition gains one seat each in Queensland (which has swung implausibly heavily over recent weeks) and Western Australia, but drops one in Tasmania off a particularly bad showing in this week’s Morgan breakdowns. Newspoll has furnished the leadership ratings with a new set of data, resulting in both leaders copping substantial hits on net approval. Bill Shorten is back to where he was prior to a post-budget bounce, and there is also a substantial move in Tony Abbott’s favour on preferred prime minister, although this largely represents a correction after the post-budget results caused the trend line to overshoot the individual data points.

The biggest of last week’s shifts to have been confirmed by the latest result is a two-point drop for Palmer United, which had risen from a base of around 4% before the Western Australian Senate election to over 7% in the upheaval following the budget. It would have dropped still further if I had included the 3% rating the party recorded in this week’s Newspoll, according to The Australian’s report. However, Palmer United results are not featured in Newspoll’s reporting, and taking advantage of sporadic information that appears in newspaper reports runs the risk of introducing a bias, in that the numbers are more likely to be provided in some circumstances than others. I have thus maintained my usual practice of deriving a Palmer United result from Newspoll by calculating a trend result of the party’s share of the total “others” vote from all other pollsters, and applying that share to Newspoll’s “others” result. So far as this week’s Newspoll result is concerned, this has the unfortunate effect of giving Palmer United a vote share over double that reported by The Australian.

There are other reasons why Palmer United’s recent form is of interest, so I provide below a close-up of the party’s polling trend with the most recent Newspoll excluded. While the trend line commences its descent in the middle of May, observation of the individual data points clearly indicates that the party was still at its record peak until the very end of June, but that it slipped substantially thereafter. Mike Willesee’s report on the party for the Seven Network’s Sunday Night, which aired on June 8, may have had something to do with this.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

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1296 comments

1,296 thoughts on “BludgerTrack: 53.5-46.5 to Labor

  1. kezza2

    [Boerwar
    Posted Friday, June 20, 2014 at 6:46 pm | PERMALINK
    Hey Kezz

    You crossed the line.]

    I looked right and left.

  2. Tom the first and best

    992

    So a famous last words election review then?

  3. taylormade

    Sir Pajama Pudding of Lake Disappointment @ 870

    Love the maps thank you. Brought back a lot of memories. Spent time on a Kibbutz in the Golan Heights many years ago.

    The Druze were always the friendliest people in that region.

  4. ruawake

    How sad. 😆

    [Former political staffer James Ashby could be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees incurred by Peter Slipper after dropping his sexual harassment suit less than a fortnight before the trial.
    In the Federal Court on Friday, Justice Geoffrey Flick refused to vacate the hearing date of June 30 unless the parties could come to an agreement on costs.
    “This case will start at 9.30am on the 30th of June unless there is agreement on how it going to be resolved beforehand,” a clearly frustrated Justice Flick said.]

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/james-ashby-faces-paying-peter-slippers-legal-fees-after-aborting-trial-20140620-zsgdp.html#ixzz35ARjlgsQ

  5. muttleymcgee

    “”But it reveals the party was facing electoral doom under the leadership of Julia Gillard, with expected swings against it of 18 per cent which could have left the Opposition with as few as 40 seats.”

    After the treasonous Rudd had spent all of his backbench time backstabbing, whiteanting and doing his best to undermine the party that made him PM, what would you expect?

    When Labor finally gets rid of anyone, especially Shorten, who was involved with Rudd they might be electable. Even now, with rAbbott’s disaster plain for all to see, Labor would struggle to win an election with Shorten as leader.

    Labor is stuffed because it has too much baggage, too much Union influence and too much faction rubbish. Only when Labor cleans its house will it become a viable alternative again.

  6. WeWantPaul

    There are a lot if very valid criticisms of Psephos but really ignorance is rarely one of them.

    But please list the others …

  7. mikehilliard

    Gillard could have won the 2013 election & you can’t prove otherwise.

  8. poroti

    taylormade

    [The Druze were always the friendliest people in that region.]

    Robert Fisk a couple of days ago met with Druze leader Walid Jumblatt. Thought he must have died years ago.

    [“Sykes-Picot is dead,” Walid Jumblatt roared at me last night – and he may well be right.]
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/robert-fisk-the-old-partition-of-the-middle-east-is-dead-i-dread-to-think-what-will-follow-9536467.html

  9. shellbell

    Ashby won’t have any liability to Slipper for costs because Slipper owes Ashby for the failed strike out application both before Rares J and the Full Court.

  10. bemused

    Mad Lib@989


    confessions
    Posted Friday, June 20, 2014 at 6:28 pm | PERMALINK
    Well the ALP post election review tells us what we all knew and could see unfolding during the election campaign.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-20/labors-2013-election-review-blames-rudd-and-his-advisers/5539830

    No surprises there.


    Oh really?

    So you agree with this bit:


    “But it reveals the party was facing electoral doom under the leadership of Julia Gillard, with expected swings against it of 18 per cent which could have left the Opposition with as few as 40 seats.”

    Well, for once I agree with Mad Lib. She can say something sensible occasionally.

    Of course it was all Rudd’s fault! The dastardly villain attacked Gillard’s dagger with his back in June 2010 and it was all downhill from there. 😛

    The view is strange through the prism of sexism explains everything.

  11. nappin

    I looked right and left.

    Need to look up as well, kezz

  12. Boerwar

    Deblonay alert: Putin has sent a letter of demand to the US seeking the urgent return of Alaska.

    According to Putin, the bones of sea-otters that litter the floor of the Bering Sea are a clear sign that Alaska should belong to Russia.

  13. psyclaw

    Kezza #990

    I don’t know how Heydon views the Carmody appointment.

    But he’d be totally out of step with the majority of his profession if he supported it.

    The poor level of consultation with the profession, the disregard of advice, and the breach of confidence in leaking some of the consultations is abominable, and trashes the conventions around appointments.

    But this disrespect for process and conventions is the hallmark of jerk Newman and jerk Abbott.

  14. confessions

    [Gillard could have won the 2013 election & you can’t prove otherwise.]

    In the end it doesn’t matter how she would’ve fared. It was apparent by the second week of the campaign that the wheels had fallen off, chiefly because of the hopelessness of the then incumbent.

  15. muttleymcgee


    “But it reveals the party was facing electoral doom under the leadership of Julia Gillard, with expected swings against it of 18 per cent which could have left the Opposition with as few as 40 seats.”

    Well, for once I agree with Mad Lib. She can say something sensible occasionally.

    Of course it was all Rudd’s fault! The dastardly villain attacked Gillard’s dagger with his back in June 2010 and it was all downhill from there. 😛

    The view is strange through the prism of sexism explains everything.”

    This is the very kind of stupidity Labor is saddled with. While rusted-on, yesterday’s wars continue, Labor is going nowhere.

    Time to get over it and get on with tomorrow.

  16. bemused

    ruawake@994

    At least the ALP review of the 2013 election was emailed (the link) to all ALP members. Beats the Bracks,Carr,Faulkner fiasco of hidden bits and leaked bits.

    It really is about time that was released in full.

  17. kezza2

    ru

    Poor Ashby. All he wanted was a relationship with a like-minded chap of a certain age.

    Until the Libs got stuck into him. And was promised the earth, if only he would compromise a certain MP so that Brough could get a seat.

    What’s a strawberry-picking promoter to do?

    I’m not the strawberry picker
    I’m the strawberry picker’s son*
    I’m only picking strawberry’s
    Till the strawberry picker comes.

    *No reference to the youngest MP in the history of the Australian parliament.

    So the used douchebag now has to pay the piper.

    It’s always all about money, isn’t it?

  18. Dee

    Wonder how much the Newman government is spending on advertising?

  19. bemused

    ruawake@1000

    How sad.


    Former political staffer James Ashby could be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees incurred by Peter Slipper after dropping his sexual harassment suit less than a fortnight before the trial.
    In the Federal Court on Friday, Justice Geoffrey Flick refused to vacate the hearing date of June 30 unless the parties could come to an agreement on costs.
    “This case will start at 9.30am on the 30th of June unless there is agreement on how it going to be resolved beforehand,” a clearly frustrated Justice Flick said.


    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/james-ashby-faces-paying-peter-slippers-legal-fees-after-aborting-trial-20140620-zsgdp.html#ixzz35ARjlgsQ

    I think either his backers will pick up the tab or he will spill the beans.

  20. confessions

    [A report on the police handling of former treasurer Troy Buswell’s series of crashes in his ministerial car was politically motivated, West Australian Premier Colin Barnett says.]

    Of course Barnett would form this view.

  21. kezza2

    [nappin
    Posted Friday, June 20, 2014 at 7:02 pm | PERMALINK
    I looked right and left.

    Need to look up as well, kezz]

    Cute response.

    But I had my own inspiration.

  22. confessions

    [This is the very kind of stupidity Labor is saddled with.]

    In my experience that kind of stupidity isn’t isolated to Labor members. Spend any amount of time amongst old, white men and you’ll invariably come across a nuff nuff who truly believes women are to blame for everything bad that happens to men like them. And the younger the woman happens to be, the more she is to blame for their ails.

  23. poroti

    Dee

    Must be shed loads. Over the last month or two heaps of soothing ads about privatisation and how it will fix the Labor created debt problem . Although couched in the words of wanting to “consult” with the people of Quinceland.

  24. nappin

    Time to get over it and get on with tomorrow.

    Agreed. Historical paybacks, who did what when, what happened to the little red cart – can all be argued to distraction. Whilst I suspect Psephos would concur that we have much to learn from history (including that we don’t learn), we can also become self-indulgent to the point that we don’t look to tomorrow and I fear that happens far too much in all politics. A more positive approach is refreshing, but not always politically palatable to politicians.

  25. Steve777

    I skimmed through the Labor review of the 2013 election. I did not focus my eyes on every word but the conclusions seemed valid. A couple of things I didn’t see mentioned were (1) the success that the Coalition had in harvesting the votes of the politically disengaged, getting many of them worked up about boats and the ‘carbon tax’; and (2) how to counter the disadvantage of he mainstream media actively campaigning for ghe other side.

    Labor needs a strategy to engage the disengaged, mostly low and lower middle income earners, and convince them where their interests lie. (2) some recommedations hinted at it, e.g. clever use of social media, but Labor needs a ‘counter and bypass the mainstream media’ strategy.

  26. bemused

    muttleymcgee@1011


    Time to get over it and get on with tomorrow.

    I agree.
    I also agree with your earlier comments about baggage.
    But we need to learn the lessons of what went wrong to avoid repeating them.

    For better or for worse, Shorten is now the leader, he won it fair and square with rules all agreed on. Time to get behind him and do the best we can at the next election.

  27. mikehilliard

    Yes, we must move on. But I will never agree with the Gillard PM fictional revisionism batted around here by some.

  28. bemused

    confessions@1018


    This is the very kind of stupidity Labor is saddled with.


    In my experience that kind of stupidity isn’t isolated to Labor members. Spend any amount of time amongst old, white men and you’ll invariably come across a nuff nuff who truly believes women are to blame for everything bad that happens to men like them. And the younger the woman happens to be, the more she is to blame for their ails.

    Here we go again, rampant misandry and ageism on full display.

    Women like Tanya Plibersek and Penny Wong destroy your rubbish views.

  29. Dee

    Poroti

    Caught a glimpse of a new round of ads.

    Something about awards, mountains of paperwork, resources which could be used for the better health.

  30. confessions

    mikeh:

    I just ignore the revisionism now as history will be the final judge, and at the end of the day it really doesn’t matter what a bunch of anonymous, angry (mostly) men have to froth about over her time as PM.

  31. muttleymcgee

    MH
    “Yes, we must move on. But I will never agree with the Gillard PM fictional revisionism batted around here by some.”

    FFS! Let it go! It’s yesterday! It’s over!

  32. kezza2

    [bemused
    Posted Friday, June 20, 2014 at 7:16 pm | PERMALINK
    muttleymcgee@1011

    Time to get over it and get on with tomorrow.
    I agree.]

    Oh, do you. Isn’t that nice?

    You don’t want to fix up the root and branch. Let’s just brush it under the carpet, and pretend it never happened.

    But it did happen. And Labor’s and Australia’s first female PM was crucified by Labor.

    Sure it was the press, the msm, and the Opposition, but the fatal blows were delivered by Labor itself.

    How do you propose rectifying that?

    Wake the fuck up to yourselves.

  33. zoidlord

    @Poroti/Dee

    Yeah must be heaps, I heard on radio this arvo too.

  34. Everything

    [kezza2
    ….But it did happen. And Labor’s and Australia’s first female PM was crucified by Labor.]

    She was crucified by the voters. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Half the voters are women, and they were going to give her an electoral thrashing as well.

    [Sure it was the press, the msm, and the Opposition, but the fatal blows were delivered by Labor itself.]

    Fatal blows like:
    1. Stabbing Rudd in the back?
    2. The People’s Forum on climate change?
    3. Putting the CPRS on hold?
    4. The “Lurch to the Right” on asylum seekers?
    5. The Mining tax debacle?

    How are these anything but Gillard’s own fault?

    [How do you propose rectifying that?]

    Get rid of her.

    Tick 🙂

    [Wake the fuck up to yourselves.]

    Oh dear.

  35. victoria

    Michael Lawler was at the RC seen here sitting with Marc Bolano, whilst listening to KJackson’s evidence

  36. Bushfire Bill

    [In the end it doesn’t matter how she would’ve fared. It was apparent by the second week of the campaign that the wheels had fallen off, chiefly because of the hopelessness of the then incumbent.]

    My view is that Rudd gave up after the No Show party room fiasco in February, but the Uglies picked his dead political body up, stuck up broom-stick up its arse and put it on a horse to scare the enemy into thinking it was still alive.

    He owed them at least one more try, even from beyond the grave.

    No commentary on how hopeless Gillard was supposed to be can ignore the fact that she was white-anted mercilessly and egregiously by Rudd’s party allies – in the main, as disaffected a bunch of losers as you’d ever hope to countenance – whether at his direction or simply because by the time 2013 came along they were so consumed by hatred they didn’t give a shit what damage they did to the nation, the government, their party or themselves.

    It was a tragedy that should never be repeated. Rudd may have had genuine grievances. He had his chance to get the leadership back a couple of times and was either defeated or didn’t show up because he couldn’t take the humiliation.

    He hung on too long, and in doing so wrecked the Gillard government. His consiglieres just didn’t give a damn what they did in the end. They let Tony Abbott look like it was possible – just – that he could morph into a statesman, or even a human being. It was THAT bad.

    A great Labor government lost office. The only seats Rudd saved were those he’d lost by his antics and ll-consuming narcissism in the first place. He lost 30 seats and got 10 or 15 back.

    Big effing deal.

    Those seats shouldn’t have been lost in the first place. Rudd has to wear that shame for his entire life. If I saw him in the street I’d spit on him for what he did.

  37. Everything

    [confessions
    …..I just ignore the revisionism now as history will be the final judge, and at the end of the day it really doesn’t matter what a bunch of anonymous, angry (mostly) men have to froth about over her time as PM.]

    Most of the men AND most of the women didn’t want her to be PM.

    You always seem to forget the “most of the women” bit, don’t you?

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2013/04/14/nielsen-57-43-galaxy-54-46/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

  38. muttleymcgee

    “For better or for worse, Shorten is now the leader, he won it fair and square with rules all agreed on. Time to get behind him and do the best we can at the next election.”

    Oh Bullsh!t!! Time to clean out all of that nonsense, get rid of Shorten and win! While all the committees and rules and bureaucratic rubbish goes on the electorate only sees more Labor navel gazing. Labor had the chance to sort it all out and squibbed it while sending Vanstone to Italy and Downer to Ceylon instead of changing the media laws and emasculating Mordor. No bloody wonder Labor is in opposition!!

    Let it go and find out what the centre of the electorate want and give it to them!!

    When it’s brown, flush it down!

  39. Everything

    [confessions
    ….In my experience that kind of stupidity isn’t isolated to Labor members. Spend any amount of time amongst old, white men and you’ll invariably come across a nuff nuff who truly believes women are to blame for everything bad that happens to men like them]

    Spend any amount of time here and you will invariably come across a few who truly believe that men are to blame for everything bad that happens to women.

  40. Bushfire Bill

    [Spend any amount of time here and you will invariably come across a few who truly believe that men are to blame for everything bad that happens to women.]

    And it’s all true.

  41. confessions

    briefly:

    If you’re about the impending cold front looks pretty awesome on our earth wind animation! It stretches almost all the way from Geraldton to Antarctica.

  42. confessions

    Bushfire:

    True. I’m sure the party breathed a collective sigh of relief when the man announced his retirement from parliament.

  43. ruawake

    […while sending Vanstone to Italy]

    That was Howard. 😛

  44. muttleymcgee

    Any fluff in that navel, ru?

  45. mikehilliard

    BB@1032

    Thanks for cutting through the crap — again.

  46. ruawake

    Oh and Downer went to Cyprus, it was an UN appointment. 😛

  47. Everything

    [Bushfire Bill
    ….. If I saw him in the street I’d spit on him for what he did.]

    Again with the hate and the personal attack.

    Quite an interesting political analysis there for some aspiring PhD student, don’t you think?

  48. WeWantPaul

    Always good to relive the Rudd Gillard debacle on a Friday night when the trains aren’t running and an old bus is jolting length by painful length through Friday night congestion.

    Firstly it is important to remember the nastiness and dishonesty of the libs and Abbott.

    Secondly of the 1200 different versions the clowns have told to justify the Rudd removal one thing stands out, either the clowns thought Rudd would be delighted to be removed from office by Paul Howes on national tv in his first term as his polling was improving or these clowns thought they could win anyway. The first is fundamentally inconsistent with the now prevailing story that Rudd was an impossible to work with arrogant f-wit. If there is any truth in this at all they got rid of him knowing that he would be furious. So they must have thought they could win.

    He and / or his supporters were furious and then oops they didn’t win the election. This was the weakness that destroyed Gillard – not Rudd. If Rudd had died in the first month on the Gillard minority government it is almost certain she’d have been removed much sooner – Rudd being there and the massive animosity between the Howes warriors and the Rudd warriors protected Gillard for a long time.

  49. poroti

    Dee
    [

    Caught a glimpse of a new round of ads]
    With a promise of a unicorn in every Quincelander’s garage I’m sure.

  50. kezza2

    BB
    [. Rudd has to wear that shame for his entire life. If I saw him in the street I’d spit on him for what he did.]

    I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire.

  51. kezza2

    WWP
    [If Rudd had died in the first month on the Gillard minority government it is almost certain she’d have been removed much sooner]

    It costs a lot to surgically extract your head from your arse. Suggest you start saving right now.

  52. confessions

    [Spend any amount of time here and you will invariably come across a few who truly believe that men are to blame for everything bad that happens to women.]

    No, not everything. But our political processes and the nature of being a parliamentarian are inherently structured against women.

    You only have to look at federal Cabinet to see how easy it is for women of merit to be considered worthy of promotion..

  53. Martin B

    I think that anyone who wants to tell a Rullard story without conceding that there were substantial mistakes from both of them is not being fair dinkum.

  54. rossmcg

    As bad as Richmond are, they are better watching than the millionth clash of Rudd v Gillard on PB.

  55. mikehilliard

    confessions

    You don’t mean Fiona Scott do you, the patron saint of traffic jambs.

  56. Rex Douglas

    People here demanding we move on from the treasonous internal hacking down of the Gillard Govt…. but we still see General Fitzgibbon sitting on Bill Shortens front bench.

  57. confessions

    mikeh:

    Sorry, I don’t understand. Fiona Scott?

  58. ajm

    Just read the whole 25 pages of the ALP election review. It’s actually a pretty easy read.

    It avoids personalising blame, takes positive and negative lessons from the campaign as appropriate and makes numerous sensible recommendations for future campaigns. And it’s been revealed for the world to see.

    Not particularly bureaucratic or navel gazing at all. Focuses to a major extent on getting members and supporters more involved in the political process. Includes strategies for communicating with non English speakers and non-Anglo votes. Covers the need to go around the traditional media with other campaigning techniques and the need to continuously build connections with the community between elections.

    Read it for yourself here: http://queenslandlabor.us3.list-manage.com/track/click?u=bacfa2523a055120b795f492c&id=208cab8197&e=07ba7acf56
    You’ll find it a refreshing change from the resurrection of the Rudd/Gillard wars in comments above.

  59. ruawake

    [People here demanding we move on from the treasonous internal hacking down of the Gillard Govt…. but we still see General Fitzgibbon sitting on Bill Shortens front bench.]

    Bill Shorten did not pick his front bench. 😛

  60. WeWantPaul

    [It costs a lot to surgically extract your head from your arse. Suggest you start saving right now.
    ]

    Yeah if I held your views I’d be jumping straight to abuse too try and hide my embarrassment as well.

  61. kezza2

    rossmcg
    [As bad as Richmond are, they are better watching than the millionth clash of Rudd v Gillard on PB.]

    So, as a Richmond supporter, you must be a Ruddite. No wonder you want out.

  62. poroti

    ruawake
    [
    Oh and Downer went to Cyprus, it was an UN appointment. 😛 ]
    Mind you it was a masterstroke as both sides ended up united in their opinion that he was a farquit.

  63. kezza2

    WWP

    That’s not abuse, son. That’s reality.

    Wake up to it.

  64. nappin

    You don’t want to fix up the root and branch. Let’s just brush it under the carpet, and pretend it never happened.

    But it did happen. And Labor’s and Australia’s first female PM was crucified by Labor.

    Sure it was the press, the msm, and the Opposition, but the fatal blows were delivered by Labor itself.

    How do you propose rectifying that?

    I don’t disagree with you, kezza2. I happen to think the Labor Party has screwed itself completely over the past few years – in part through internal stupidities, and in part trying to follow the conservative parties and ultra right wing nongs to win Western Sydney (or some RSL club somewhere). My approach is to sit down and look at what the structure and approach needs to be, not what can be done to tinker with the past. Julia Gillard more than Kevin Rudd, but both, showed some flashes of a forward looking approach that moved the party in the right direction. But there are too many backroom people playing with the past and their own little powerplays. Yes, there should be accountability, but there are other ways of making people accountable for their actions over the last few years, such as setting up a structure or system with good people that works, and those others become dinosaurs and disappear (like a WA Senator will, eventually). Idealistic? – yep, and I make no apologies for that.

  65. mikehilliard

    confessions

    Sorry, you said women of merit @1049 so I thought you were being ironic – like Fiona Scott who I always remember for her statement on asylum seekers + traffic jambs

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/liberal-candidate-links-asylum-seekers-to-traffic-jams-and-hospital-queues-20130903-2t1kw.html

  66. Sir Mad Cyril

    [
    I think that anyone who wants to tell a Rullard story without conceding that there were substantial mistakes from both of them is not being fair dinkum.
    ]

    Well said Martin B.

  67. Rex Douglas

    Where’s the reason in rewarding Fitzgibbon with a front bench spot ?

  68. sceptic

    Everything @ 986
    ‘Given he has absolute discretion I can’t see the point of this ruling anyway!”

    Not really, as the High Court points out he has to act according to the Law

    “directing the Minister to consider and determine his application according to law”

    So a refusal to grant a visa would be challengeable in court…

    Another total smack down handed out to Tony by the HC!!

  69. bemused

    mikehilliard@1023

    Yes, we must move on. But I will never agree with the Gillard PM fictional revisionism batted around here by some.

    Yes, Puffy, confessions and a few others are just shocking. 😀

  70. poroti

    [As bad as Richmond are, they are better watching than the millionth clash of Rudd v Gillard on PB.]
    Holy moly Richmond up 14-2 after bugger all time v Swans.

  71. Martin B

    [It avoids personalising blame, takes positive and negative lessons from the campaign as appropriate and makes numerous sensible recommendations for future campaigns. ]

    Seems mostly pretty sensible – not sure that the suggestions on preselection are quite the way to go.

    The anti-Greens rant is just silly though.

  72. WeWantPaul

    For the record I’m not a Rudd supporter I am a labor supporter. The sooner both shambles are forgotten the better – but the ridiculous stories and fantasies held by team Gillard are far and away crazier and more dangerous for labor than those told by faction Rudd. If you criticize Rudd here you don’t get the same torrent of abuse you get when you criticize Gillard even after you adjust for the relatively small sample of those in team Rudd.

  73. bemused

    kezza2@1028


    bemused
    Posted Friday, June 20, 2014 at 7:16 pm | PERMALINK
    muttleymcgee@1011

    Time to get over it and get on with tomorrow.
    I agree.


    Oh, do you. Isn’t that nice?

    You don’t want to fix up the root and branch. Let’s just brush it under the carpet, and pretend it never happened.

    But it did happen. And Labor’s and Australia’s first female PM was crucified by her own inadequacy.

    Sure it was the press, the msm, and the Opposition, but the fatal blows were delivered by Labor itself.

    How do you propose rectifying that?

    Wake the fuck up to yourselves.

    Fixed part of it for you kezza2. 😉

    I am all in favour of root and branch reform. Have been for years.

  74. rossmcg

    Kezza

    Richmond supporter? the only good thing abt Richmond since Richo returned is their song.

  75. rossmcg

    Thats since Richo retired

  76. confessions

    mikeh:

    Thanks, got it.

    Sorry, I was making the point about the relative absence of women from the first Abbott Cabinet. Dutton and Joyce in Cabinet, while a number of women frontbenchers sit on the periphery, who could arguably do a better job than those two.

  77. shellbell

    MTBW

    Nice words said in parliament for Phil Boulten SC

    [Mr BARRY COLLIER (Miranda) [1.16 p.m.]: I draw the attention of the House to the work and contribution of Mr Phillip Boulten, SC, in his role as President of the New South Wales Bar Association. Few on either side of this House and in the other place would not have read, or at least been referred to, the Bar Association’s detailed analysis of legislation introduced in this Parliament during Mr Boulten’s time at the helm. Whether it be proposed changes to the criminal or civil law, changes to regulations affecting the administration of justice in this State or changes affecting the legal profession itself, Mr Boulten has consistently left members of this House in no doubt about the legal principles involved, the cases and the considered views of his learned members. Mr Boulten has brought his vast experience and his enormous energy to his presidency over the past 18 months. Having decided to step down from this very demanding role, I am sure that the House will join me in congratulating him on his outstanding leadership of the Bar Association and in thanking him for his valuable contribution to debate both here and in the other place.]

  78. rossmcg

    Kezza

    And for what it is worth I was a Gillard fan

    No alternate views will be responded to

  79. confessions

    All I can say is the Swans better win. It’s a crucial point in the office footy tipping comp, and I’m within striking distance of claiming the coveted No. 1 spot on the ladder! 😀

  80. bemused

    Martin B@1050

    I think that anyone who wants to tell a Rullard story without conceding that there were substantial mistakes from both of them is not being fair dinkum.

    Correct.

    Both were flawed individuals as we all are.

  81. ajm

    Martin B
    [The anti-Greens rant is just silly though.]
    I think the analysis presented is pretty sound. As a result of the Greens attacks on Labor, their policy objectives have suffered rather than benefited. As a Labor member who also considers himself to be a deep shade of green, I think this is a tragedy and demands some strong language. The emphasis on the report is correctly for Labor to maximise its own vote – in some cases this may involve cooperation with the Greens and in other cases it may not.

  82. mikehilliard

    confessions

    Check.

    Dutton is a moron, Barnyard is as Barnyard does.

  83. poroti

    confessions

    26-8 to the Richo’s at the mo in first quarter.

  84. Bushfire Bill

    Very few Gillard supporters would say she was either without blame or without fault.

    Everybody is like that.

    The Rudd white-anting moved the LAbor government closer to the edge, where the slightest movement or tremble could be magnified way beyond its intrinsic performance.

    When , for three years, there was only one vote in it – be it Thomson or Slipper or the Independents (according to your favourite Get Gillard fantasy) – any minor embarrassment could be and was magnified into a major crisis. Hardly anyone in politics could withstand that kind of constant pressure.

    It got to its most ridiculous when the Goody Two-Shoes Greens and the Muslim-Hating Liberals combined together to defeat the initial offshore processing attempt (Malaysian Solution) for 180 degree opposed reasons.

    As a result we got Abbott. No matter HOw wonderful Rudd was, we did nopt deserve Abbott.

    Quoting poll after poll that said the idiots out there, drunk on Reality TV, would vote Rudd in again in a landslide did the trick. And look what happened. After two weeks he was almost as abysmally low in the polls as Gillard had been.

    Abbott, slightly off balance, promised the earth to anyone who asked him. Unity Tickets here, blood oaths there… all of them now known to be promises broken.

    And for what? We got Abbott you loonies. Was Abbott worth three years of white-anting?

    I was as happy as the next man for Rudd to have another go at regaining the leadership. But he tried one too many times. The last time I believe it was his disaffected ex-ministers who put him up to it, shamed him into it, if you like. But there’s a point where your quest to prove yourself the Saviour condemns those you are seeking to save. The village was destroyed in order to save it. And the punters, drunk on populism, tabloidism and the sheer joy of feeling empowered to destroy their own government, who urged Rudd to have another go, deserted him within a fortnight.

    And now we have Abbott. The Wrecker. I hope you’re happy.

  85. poroti

    mikehilliard
    [Barnyard is as Barnyard does.]

    Barnyard is a Joh. He puts on the hayseed act. A year or two back I heard him in a long interview on RN discussing the proposed changes to recognition of local councils.

    He was erudite and cogent. Utterly unlike the usual Barnyard persona.

  86. mikehilliard

    bemused

    [And Labor’s and Australia’s first female PM was crucified by her own inadequacy.]

    Your revisionism is pathetic, you could at least apply some humor.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lN4TSslz-0

  87. confessions

    [The emphasis on the report is correctly for Labor to maximise its own vote – in some cases this may involve cooperation with the Greens and in other cases it may not.]

    Agreed. The Greens attacks on Labor policy in the last parliament was pure political strategy. It beats me why Greens partisans continue to deny as much, presumably because they can’t bear for their party to be seen to be playing politics.

  88. bemused

    rossmcg@1075

    Kezza

    And for what it is worth I was a Gillard fan

    No alternate views will be responded to

    I am glad you used the past tense indicating you got over it.

  89. confessions

    poroti:

    First qtr. Plenty of time. 😀

  90. Psephos

    Here is my response to Astrobleme’s set of comments earlier. I haven’t reproduced the earlier exchange, so anyone interested will have to go upstream to find it.

    1. Israel as the Jewish homeland: I think it’s clear that the first clause of my earlier statement was qualified by the second clause. If it’s not clear, I’ll state it more clearly: The Jewish people have regarded Israel as their homeland ever since they existed as a distinct people, which is from about 1500 BC. They have maintained an unbroken connection to that land throughout their history. There has never been a time when Jews did not live there, never a time when Jewish pilgrims did not travel there (mainly to die), and never a time when Jews did not include the desire to return to Jerusalem in their prayers. Organised Jewish resettlement in Israel began in the 16th century at the instigation of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent.

    2. Jewish state v Jewish National Home: The Zionist movement before 1918 didn’t claim a separate Jewish state, although of course that was the long-term desire of most active Zionists from Herzl onwards. The Balfour Declaration promised them only the right to a “National Home”, not a state, and the Zionist movement did not demand more. That was confirmed at San Remo. If they had been able to live in peace with the Arabs under the British Mandate, the question of a state might never have arisen, although of course the advent of Hitler made the situation more urgent. Before 1933, most Jews – despite their attachment to Israel – were not Zionists and did not intend moving to Palestine.

    3. The League of Nations and Palestine: The Allies had defeated the Ottoman Empire and assumed the right to dispose of its territories, consistent with international law at that time. They then delegated that right to the League of Nations, which created the Mandate system to provide for the government of former German and Ottoman territories. The Zionist movement accepted that, since it was in their interests to do so. The scenario then was that Britain would rule Palestine forever, and that Jews and Arabs would live peaceably together under benign British rule. Since there were only about 300,000 Arabs in Mandate Palestine when it was created, that would have been perfectly possible.

    4. Palestine as Arab homeland: There was never a Palestinian state or even an administrative area called Palestine at any time after the Arab conquest of the area in the 7th century. Under the Ottomans, the area was part of Syria and governed from Damascus or Beirut. Until the British created Mandate Palestine, there was no such place as Palestine and no such person as a Palestinian. There was and is no ethnic, religious, linguistic or cultural difference between an Arab in Jerusalem, in Amman, in Damascus or in Beirut. In 1918 Palestine had about 300,000 people, a mixed population of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Armenians (such as the Hockedonian ancestors of our beloved Treasurer), Circassians, Druze and others. There was no concept of Palestinian nationality. Of course, Palestine was the home of those Arabs who lived there, but it was never the plan of the Zionist movement to drive them out. Most of them lived the highlands of what is now the West Bank, where few Jews settled. The coastal plain, where most Jews settled, was a malarial swamp and very thinly populated. The Jews bought their land legally and most Arabs were happy to sell.

    5. Jewish-Arab relations and partition: By the late 1920s, as western notions of nationalism penetrated the Arab world and a Palestinian national identity began to form, it became the clear intention of the Arab leaders to drive the Jews out of Palestine altogether. This was made clear by the Hebron massacre of 1929. The 67 Jews killed at Hebron were not Zionist settlers but religious Jews who had lived there through centuries of Muslim rule. That incident led directly to the Peel Commission and the first proposal for partition, which the Arabs rejected outright although the proposed Jewish state at that time was about a third the size of the one proposed in 1947.

    6. The Arabs and the Partition Plan: The Arab states and the Arab leaders in Palestine rejected the principle of partition from the start, and refused to co-operate with UNSCOP. They would have rejected the Partition Plan whatever its proposed boundaries, and were preparing for war well before the Plan was announced, let alone voted on at the UN.

    7. The chronology of 1947-48: I was not attempting to write a detailed history. The end of the Mandate, the collapse of the Partition Plan, the Israeli declaration of statehood and the beginning of the war all happened more of less simultaneously, and the exact chronology doesn’t matter particularly. The important facts are that the Jewish Agency accepted the Partition Plan and the Arab states and the Palestinian Arab leaders rejected it. Had they accepted it, there would have been a Palestinian Arab state for the past 65 years (considerably larger than any now likely to be created), and we would not now be having this discussion.

    8. The status of the West Bank and Gaza: After 1949 these territories were left outside Israeli control, but they were part of Mandate Palestine and have never been recognised as belonging to any other state. Jordan purported to annex the West Bank, but this claim was never recognised and has now been withdrawn. Egypt never annexed Gaza. These territories are therefore legally not part of any state, but since they were part of the territory designated at San Remo as the Jewish National Home, Israel has as good a claim as any. In fact, however, Israel has agreed (in the Oslo Accords) that these territories will form the basis of a Palestinian state. In the meantime, Jews have as much right to live there as anyone else does. The “settlements” occupy less than 10% of the land area of the Territories and would not prevent the formation of a viable Palestinian state. The impediment to such a state is not the settlements, but the Palestinian refusal to accept the permanent and legitimate existence of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, which must preclude the resettlement of the 4 million UNRWA Palestinians within Israel’s borders. If you ask where those people should go, my answer is that they should be settled in Jordan, which was the eastern half of Mandate Palestine before the British detached it to create a state for their clients the Hashemites. Jordan, plus 90% of the West bank, plus Gaza, would make a Palestinian state much larger than the one the Palestinians were offered in 1947. Israel should then agree to joint sovereignty over central Jerusalem, which will he hard for them to accept but is a necessary price to pay for peace.

    9. “It’s interesting that you claim to have read all those books, but still are completely unable to look at this objectively.” You are welcome to disagree with me, but I don’t think aspersions of that kind are very helpful. I’ll send you a photo of my bookcase if you like. All of the statements I have made above are, to the best of my knowledge, objective and true. You’re welcome to attempt to refute any of them.

  91. sceptic

    Review of Defence Strategic Command & Control..

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/20/defence-admits-transcripts-critiquing-australias-strategic-failures-destroyed.

    And they get rewarded for their generational incompetence by being appointed to Governor General of Australia & NSW?

    Save the money & sack the lot!

    From the report..
    “The greater the number and the higher the rank of the military officers who compose the council [of war] , the more difficult will it be to accomplish the triumph of truth and reason, however small be the amount of dissent. ”

    Jomini The Art of War 1838 article 14 p.58. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13549/13549-h/13549- h.htm#ARTICLE_XIV

  92. mikehilliard

    poroti

    So Joyce has his lucid moments?

  93. kezza2

    Australia was invaded in 1788.

    In the following 222 years, Australia was led by men, just as it had been for the previous 40,000 years.

    In June 2010, Julia Gillard became PM of Australia.

    And the blokes couldn’t handle it.

    They had to do everything in their power to stop her. And they did.

    You should all hang your heads in absolute shame for getting rid of a parliamentarian who wanted the best for all of us.

    Who wanted nothing more, and nothing less, than education for all.

    Who wanted nothing more, and nothing less, than equal opportunity for all.

    Who held together a minority parliament, stability for the nation, and friendship with every other nation.

    Who wanted nothing less than peace and friendship with our global responsibility.

    Every one of you, every one of you who supported the reckless traducing of Julia Gillard, is responsible for this government that is not acting in our national interest.

    We weren’t the first nation to have a female leader. We won’t be the last. But we were the first nation to make our female leader a hated figure.

    And those of you who welcomed it, and those of you from her own party who wanted it, stand accused of ignorance and sending our nation backwards.

    You won’t be forgiven.

  94. confessions

    [The Rudd white-anting moved the LAbor government closer to the edge, where the slightest movement or tremble could be magnified way beyond its intrinsic performance.]

    For years I said (correctly as it happened) that the only reason Rudd whiteanting succeeded was BECAUSE of the minority govt situation.

    Place him and his sorry arse in a majority govt situation and his backgrounding, cheap sneaky attacks on Gillard and goading the opposition to ask him questions in QT alluding negatively to her would’ve looked like a severe case of sour grapes and a massive sense of over-entitlement factor. For a start he wouldn’t have been a front bencher, so no QT focus.

  95. bemused

    mikehilliard@1083

    bemused


    And Labor’s and Australia’s first female PM was crucified by her own inadequacy.


    Your revisionism is pathetic, you could at least apply some humor.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lN4TSslz-0

    No revisionism I am afraid.

    I was stunned at first when she took the leadership but I chose to hope for the best.

    Hope turned to anguish when we got the “Citizens’s Assembly”, the “Cash for Clunkers” and the banal “Moving Forward”. That gave us the minority Govt and all that flowed from it.

  96. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    You only have to consider that the New Parliament House was built with bars and gyms but not one creche pr kindergarten to understand how many women were expected to ever be in parliament, or for mothers of young children to work there.

  97. Martin B

    [I think the analysis presented is pretty sound.]

    It’s self-serving nonsense for the reasons described above and others. Even to the extent that the Greens contributed to the difficulties on climate policy – and it is not at all clear that this was substantial – it is blindingly obvious that they were not the only source of difficulty but this ALP whinge is just an attempt to shift blame and avoid responsible.

    [The emphasis on the report is correctly for Labor to maximise its own vote – in some cases this may involve cooperation with the Greens and in other cases it may not.]

    Absolutely, but that view is hardly promoted by describing the “raison d’etre” of the Greens as being to attack the ALP. That’s paranoid, entitled and silly.

  98. fredex

    Well I read the ALP thingy and I can see why they have a problem or 3 or more. The report is a symptom of the problems.

    As ajm notes above “The emphasis on the report is correctly for Labor to maximise its own vote – in some cases this may involve cooperation with the Greens and in other cases it may not.” but this report is clearly anti-cooperation – just look at the language used. Monty Pythonesque.

    Some of the analysis is good but where the report fails is that it omits the 2 main areas that have caused the ALP problems – at a long glance I couldn’t see anything relevant to:
    1. policies
    2. the antagonism of the media.

    OK #2 was partly covered by the section on including in the campaign facebook etc but apart from platitudes and clichés the policies and how to get them through a hostile media was given minimal attention.
    When the ALP gets back to basics – policies and messaging – then it will be the major force it should be on its own efforts rather than as it is at present by default.

    Have policies the people want and need and enunciate them and when the media intercedes attack that intercession.
    Go strong.

  99. poroti

    mikehilliard

    He does . Not only but also at the time the Libs were in scare mode saying NO but Barnaby was arguing for the Yes side.

  100. nappin

    Good point, Puff

  101. Martin B

    [Agreed. The Greens attacks on Labor policy in the last parliament was pure political strategy. It beats me why Greens partisans continue to deny as much, presumably because they can’t bear for their party to be seen to be playing politics.]

    Sigh. All political parties deploy pragmatic actions in pursuit of political principles. This is as true of the Greens as it is of the ALP. It’s just silly to describe something as being only about pragmatism as it would be to portray a party as being purely principled. Beyond this criticism of Greens for being the same as the ALP is double standards.

  102. confessions

    Puffy:

    Yeah, and then you’ve got the furore which was launched at women who breastfed their child in the chamber.

  103. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    And if anyone here does not like my support of Julia Gillard and the fact that I will never agree with the sexist crap spouted by certain people here to cover up the appalling actions of that pig Rudd, well too flaming bad. If you don’t like it, go and throw darts at your Gillard dartboard while you vigorously comfort your aggrieved manhoods.

  104. confessions

    [This is as true of the Greens as it is of the ALP.]

    *Sigh* This is illustrating my point perfectly.

    Well yeah, of course it is. But while I’m happy to concede that the ALP is prepared to play politics in order to seek electoral advantage, you’ll find almost zero Greens fans who can do similarly.

  105. zoomster

    fredex

    given that most of Labor’s policies consistently polled well – and continue to do so – I’m not sure that policies were the problem.

  106. kezza2

    bemused

    You’re a bloke who won’t even recognise the historical rampant sexism within the education department because you happen to have a couple of grand-daughters you think the world of, and couldn’t imagine anyone thinking differently.

    And you have your own input to make sure they’re on ‘equal’ footing.

    Yet you couldn’t even give Gillard support because she espoused Labor Party policy you didn’t agree with – although you assigned the failures to her, not the party.

    When else have you ever done that? To a male leader? Never.

    What about Rudd’s brainfarts in the lead up to the 2013 election. You know, tax breaks for the North, moving the military to Brissy, all those things.

    What about those? Did you apply your same reasoning to Rudd. That he was a dickhead. Or were those just silly Labor policies.

    Wake the fuck up to yourself.

  107. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    fess
    Yeah, it is ok for male parliamentarians to go to strip clubs to stare at bare tits but God forbid a baby should suckle on the breast in the Chamber.

    Freakin hypocrites.

  108. poroti

    Faaark ! Richos in no time at all up 40-12 v Swannies early Q2

  109. Rex Douglas

    Julia Gillard pulled off a miracle in 2010 to form a minority Govt considering the humiliating failings of Rudd which resulted in his sacking and the treasonous whiteanting that followed.

    Rudd should have been expelled then and there.

    It is incomprehensible how an individual such as Fitzgibbon is still warming Labors front bench.

  110. Thomas. Paine.

    [by certain people here to cover up the appalling actions of that pig Gillard,..]

    You know, the one that help plot and stab a PM in the back for no reason apart from internal power play. Funny how your history only starts with your idol post her betrayal…

  111. mikehilliard

    [Yeah, and then you’ve got the furore which was launched at women who breastfed their child in the chamber.]

    OMGod there is a reason for those things! Fark I hate men who can’t stand the sight of a tit doing it’s intended job. Indicates a very destabilised libido.

    bemused – whilst I’m having a rant all those policies you listed @1092 were at least positive in their intent.

  112. confessions

    Puffy:

    Or turn up to Estimates committee’s pissed as newts.

    Barnaby’s Button, anyone?

  113. Thomas. Paine.

    [Rudd should have been expelled then and there.]

    Err Gillard should have been expelled, along with those that plotted the insanity of back stabbing a first term PM for no reason..apart from their own power…because they thought the public wouldn’t notice… eerr..well that stink stuck to gillard all the way through….then she hung on so long to make sure Labor was truly ruined….you know how bad would it look if Rudd came back earlier and saved Labor’s arse….so better stay to the 11th hour.

    So yeh…Gillard should have been expelled

  114. confessions

    poroti:

    Aaaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh!!!!

  115. Thomas. Paine.

    [Julia Gillard pulled off a miracle in 2010 to form a minority Govt considering the humiliating failings of Rudd which resulted in his sacking and the treasonous whiteanting that followed.]

    Oh god, must be a full moon. Rudd Labor would have alomst certainly been returned….but the brilliant Gillard and her gang…almost pulled off a miraculous loss from the jaws of victory. ANother few weeks and Labor would have been history, so quickly she was sinking.

  116. Thomas. Paine.

    [What about Rudd’s brainfarts in the lead up to the 2013 election. You know, tax breaks for the North, moving the military to Brissy, all those things.]

    you forget the incompetence of Gillard who made every Labor positive into an equal Liberal positive, she continually fumbled the national politics….and of course her stupid brainfart embarrassment of the Timor solution…..first up she showed rookie dumbness

  117. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    And I do not need to revise anything, what happened is what happened. I have not revised my assessment of those events. Rudd was dud who got turfed.

    There is some debate over whether he was turfed because he was failing the big challenges or because he was a crusading factionless orphan who was trying to reform the Party.

    My question is, if the second is real, what the flying fig was Rudd doing trying to reform the party when he was supposed to be an ALP Prime Minister setting out to prosecute the hardest and most important agenda of all time, addressing global warming?

    His first PMship, the ALP’s first term in 11 years and he starts tinkering with the party? What a complete dunce.

  118. confessions

    mikeh:

    A couple of weeks ago I had a work meeting at a local cafe and there was a woman having lunch with her friends and breastfeeding her infant afterwards. Nobody paid her any attention (she had a pashmina thing wrapped around bub), but some idiot old fart decided to complain about it, saying (loudly) he didn’t go to “eating establishments” (yeah, really) in order to see “some chick flash her titties”.

    OMG.

    Douchebags so totally exist out there.

  119. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    I did not start this, Bemused did.

  120. Martin B

    [Well yeah, of course it is. But while I’m happy to concede that the ALP is prepared to play politics in order to seek electoral advantage, you’ll find almost zero Greens fans who can do similarly.]

    For fairly obvious reasons it is in the Greens interest to talk up their principles and conversely the ALP become interested in painting them as cynical pragmatists. But that is all rhetoric and while I expect to see plenty of that here it doesn’t count for much as analysis.

    Every single serious Greens member I know, and that’s a few, would say similar things. In fact I know some who point out that because of consensus processes Greens are in fact habituated to compromising.

  121. nappin

    OMG.

    Douchebags so totally exist out there.

    Weird, hey! And they’re in Government too…..

  122. matt31

    Oh dear! Still some on here living in a fantasy world. The fantasy world that suggests that all Gillard had to do was call the election, and bang, those 57-43 polls and those 62 percent disapproval ratings would have disappeared in to thin air, the punters would have come to the realisation that they loved her and the Government she led all along, and that the ALP would have swept to a glorious victory. Sounds good, but of course it’s pure fantasy! Thankfully wiser heads prevailed, or not only would we be facing an Abbott Government with an enormous lower house majority, but a very good chance of Senate control as well. Think this budget is a shocker? Pretty sure it is nothing compared to what we would have seen if Abbott had both houses!

    Then, of course, there’s the fantasy that says that Rudd was to blame for Gillard’s unpopularity. This of course ignores the reality that often Gillard was her own worst enemy. I will not dredge up all the infamous errors of judgement again, we all know what they were and bemused has already mentioned a couple. But one of the biggest mistakes was stating that you could call the carbon price a tax. This made it impossible for the Government to argue that it had not broken a very clear election promis; how could they? You had Gillard saying there would be no carbon tax, and Gillard saying you could call the very policy the Government was implementing a tax. Gillard’s credibility had already taken some significant hits from the utterly shambolic 2010 campaign, and that 7:30 interview was the final straw for the majority of the electorate. The polls crashed immediately and never seriously recovered.

  123. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    It is not my fault the Hero Rudd couldn’t stop himself getting rolled by a woman, in a parliament which despises women leaders. He really must have been a moron.

  124. kezza2

    [Puff, the Magic Dragon.
    Posted Friday, June 20, 2014 at 8:50 pm | PERMALINK
    fess
    Yeah, it is ok for male parliamentarians to go to strip clubs to stare at bare tits but God forbid a baby should suckle on the breast in the Chamber.

    Freakin hypocrites.]

    Yeah, Kirsti Marshall being kicked out of parliament for feeding her 11-day-old baby in 2003.

    Oh, sorry, forgot to mention her milk-swollen breasts, which were the most offensive thing to men.

    Was it a workplace entitlement? Was it?

    Only if breasts in the workplace were for the sexual gratification of men, not to nourish babies.

    Vaginas in the workplace are no different. Just there for the gratification of men, not for their owners to claim stewardship over the nation. Oh, no.

    Grow up Australian men, FCS.

  125. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    Anyway, I will leave the misogynists and fools to their own revisions. Catch you all later.

  126. bemused

    Puff, the Magic Dragon.@1100

    And if anyone here does not like my support of Julia Gillard and the fact that I will never agree with the sexist crap spouted by certain people here to cover up the appalling actions of that pig Rudd, well too flaming bad. If you don’t like it, go and throw darts at your Gillard dartboard while you vigorously comfort your aggrieved manhoods.

    You are perfectly free to harbour whatever delusions you like.

    I hope you return to reality one day.

  127. WeWantPaul

    [Julia Gillard pulled off a miracle in 2010 to form a minority Govt ]

    The whole purpose of replacing Gillard was to win in 2010, it was a disaster not to win outright and it was the problem that plagued her to her removal. Rudd was neither helpful nor loyal (but then again neither had she been) but he wasn’t the problem.

    In terms of getting a message cutting through Gillard couldn’t pass a red hot razor sharp knife through sof room temp butter and Rudd wasn’t all that much better.

  128. WeWantPaul

    Sorry of course I mean replacing Rudd with Gillard …

  129. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    kezza
    plus one.

  130. matt31

    Thomas 1112

    No no, not a few weeks, one would have done it. That campaign had degenerated in to a farce. Those who want to blame the leaks forget utter rubbish like the citizens assembly! Oh yes, we take climate change so seriously that we’ll drag a whole lot of people off the street to have a chat about what we might do about it. Laughable!

    Abbott is in Government now because of the events of June 2010, not the events of June 2013. By June 2013, the Government was gone. Rudd saved some furniture and far more importantly, helped keep the Senate out of Abbott’s control.

  131. poroti

    confessions

    Maaaate, I picked Swannies to win by 23 points !!

  132. confessions

    [For fairly obvious reasons it is in the Greens interest to talk up their principles]

    Well yes, file this under statement of the bloody obvious. And yet whenever this simple fact is mentioned by people who are Labor aligned, pointing out the Greens strategy, out spring a cacophony of Greens fans to insist this isn’t some well thought out electoral strategy, but comes from a down-home place of warm, fuzzy, feel good (therefore it MUST be good) goodness.

  133. bemused

    zoomster@1102

    fredex

    given that most of Labor’s policies consistently polled well – and continue to do so – I’m not sure that policies were the problem.

    To be honest, I can hardly remember an election where ALP policies were a problem. Possibly 1966 when voters bought the Vietnam War crock and 2001 when they fell for Tampa. But they were really just distractions from policy.

  134. confessions

    poroti:

    Me tipped Swannies by 25!

  135. ajm

    Let’s try a bit of a thought experiment.

    Suppose we had a Greens Government and there was also a minority Trade Union Party called Labor which got 10-15% of the vote.
    Now Labor was after major changes in the system of employment which would virtually result in workplaces coming under the control of unions.

    Because the Greens wouldn’t agree to this in full (they had to keep the doctors’ wives who voted for them happy after all) Labor kept sniping at the Greens and doing all sorts of dodgy deals with the other party called the Capitalists, at the same time accusing the Greens of being no more than Capitalist lackeys.

    As a result, the Greens support declined and they lost the election. The Capitalists immediately banned unions outright.

    Would Labor have been guilty of grave political misjudgement? You betcha.

  136. William Bowe

    [Yeah, Kirsti Marshall being kicked out of parliament for feeding her 11-day-old baby in 2003.

    Oh, sorry, forgot to mention her milk-swollen breasts, which were the most offensive thing to men.]

    Maybe, but the Speaker who ordered Marshall from the chamber, on the grounds that her infant was not a member of parliament and hence not allowed to be on the floor, was Judy Maddigan.

  137. It's Time

    Slow news day? So its back to the Labor vs Greens, Rudd vs Gillard wars again.

  138. Martin B

    [Well yes, file this under statement of the bloody obvious. And yet whenever this simple fact is mentioned by people who are Labor aligned, pointing out the Greens strategy, out spring a cacophony of Greens fans to insist this isn’t some well thought out electoral strategy, but comes from a down-home place of warm, fuzzy, feel good (therefore it MUST be good) goodness.]

    I don’t see that myself. I think you are trading in stereotypes that ALP supporters want to believe about Greens.

  139. WeWantPaul

    [Would Labor have been guilty of grave political misjudgement? You betcha.]

    Yeah and like the real greens the hypothetical labor would blame the other party 100% refusing to accept even a tiny suggestion they should have backed the policy with all sorts of ‘reasons’ and only the truly deluded would actually believe it.

  140. bemused

    kezza2@1103

    bemused

    You’re a bloke who won’t even recognise the historical rampant sexism within the education department because you happen to have a couple of grand-daughters you think the world of, and couldn’t imagine anyone thinking differently.

    And you have your own input to make sure they’re on ‘equal’ footing.

    Yet you couldn’t even give Gillard support because she espoused Labor Party policy you didn’t agree with – although you assigned the failures to her, not the party.

    When else have you ever done that? To a male leader? Never.

    What about Rudd’s brainfarts in the lead up to the 2013 election. You know, tax breaks for the North, moving the military to Brissy, all those things.

    What about those? Did you apply your same reasoning to Rudd. That he was a dickhead. Or were those just silly Labor policies.

    Wake the fuck up to yourself.

    For the record:

    1. I acknowledge there are misogynists in politics and elsewhere, just like there are misandrysts like you, Puff and confessions on PB.

    2. I campaigned hard for Gillard in 2010 just as I do for any Labor leader.

    3. I acknowledge Rudd had brainfarts in 2013 as you describe.

    So what’s your point?

  141. zoidlord

    Speaking of Rudd….

    Retweeted by Kevin Rudd
    Chatham House ‏@ChathamHouse 9m

    Chatham House is pleased to announce appointment of @MrKRudd, former Australia PM, as Distinguished Visiting Fellow: http://www.chathamhouse.org/news/2014-06-20-kevin-rudd-joins-chatham-house-distinguished-visiting-fellow

  142. bemused

    Puff, the Magic Dragon.@1104

    fess
    Yeah, it is ok for male parliamentarians to go to strip clubs to stare at bare tits but God forbid a baby should suckle on the breast in the Chamber.

    Freakin hypocrites.

    If I had been the Speaker in Parliament on that occasion, I would have chucked out those who complained.

  143. bemused

    Rex Douglas@1106

    Julia Gillard pulled off a miracle in 2010 to form a minority Govt considering the humiliating failings of Rudd which resulted in his sacking and the treasonous whiteanting that followed.

    Rudd should have been expelled then and there.

    It is incomprehensible how an individual such as Fitzgibbon is still warming Labors front bench.

    The ‘miracle’ she pulled in 2010 was to almost lose the election after Labor was comfortably ahead.

  144. kezza2

    William

    I think you’ll find it was the Sergeant-At-Arms, a male, who brought it to the Speaker’s attention.

    Whatever.

  145. Martin B

    [Because the Greens wouldn’t agree to this in full (they had to keep the doctors’ wives who voted for them happy after all) Labor kept sniping at the Greens and doing all sorts of dodgy deals with the other party called the Capitalists, at the same time accusing the Greens of being no more than Capitalist lackeys.
    As a result, the Greens support declined and they lost the election. The Capitalists immediately banned unions outright.]

    Interesting thought experiment but I’m not sure of the relevance.

    You seem to forget that the Greens voted down precisely zero (0) government bills in the last parliament. So much for a party constantly attacking the (then) government and doing dodgy deals.

    Suggestions that the decline in the ALP vote was because of the Greens is as above self-serving nonsense and an attempt to avoid taking responsibility.

  146. kezza2

    bemused

    [The ‘miracle’ she pulled in 2010 was to almost lose the election after Labor was comfortably ahead.]

    You will not get away with your constant revisionism.

    After Rudd was deposed, Gillard’s and Labor’s fortunes rose.

    It wasn’t until the dirty little shit undermined her, via Oakes, that Labor’s fortunes stalled and Gillard used her considerable talents to rescue a minority government from the ashes of Rudd’s first/second attempts to kill her off.

    Bugger off with your bullshit.

  147. confessions

    I got busy yesterday, but was it ever resolved what happened with the Green Army bills in the Senate yesterday?

    There was much hyperventilating both here and on twitter about Labor voting for the bills, but then it was suggested the Greens voted in support of the same bills despite their amendments being defeated, and the hyperventilation ceased.

  148. bemused

    Puff, the Magic Dragon.@1116

    I did not start this, Bemused did.

    Nope.

  149. confessions

    [I think you are trading in stereotypes that ALP supporters want to believe about Greens.]

    Really?

    Next time there is a wave of Greens outrage I’ll hold you to your thought.

  150. kezza2

    Gotta go

    The kids have arrived, with many friends.

    See you later.

  151. matt31

    Wow! Now we are back to the old favourite of attacking the Greens for not supporting a deal with the Liberals so full of exemptions for big polluters that it would have locked in complete inaction! Had the Greens gone along with that deal, we would have gone the way of the Democrats, and deservedly so.

    What should have happened is that instead of Labor playing political games to wedge Turnbull and the Liberals, a genuine ETS without the exemptions should have been put to Parliament. So, the Liberals would have blocked it. Rudd had more than enough political capital to have beaten Turnbull in a double dissolution, particularly in the state the Liberals were in at the time. Of course, short term political considerations came before dealing with climate change.

  152. poroti

    confessions

    Richos gone home, Swannies suddenly up 41-40

  153. confessions

    [Suggestions that the decline in the ALP vote was because of the Greens is as above self-serving nonsense and an attempt to avoid taking responsibility.]

    Except as you yourself have pointed out, the Greens pick and choose their electoral fights off of the two major parties.

    The Greens may well have ushered through the Senate a majority of the then Labor govt’s platform but this doesn’t mean the party didn’t pick and choose its fights in order to leverage a perception of being the ‘good guy’ off of the squabbling between Labor and coalition.

    I keep reminding people here that the Greens are a political party, therefore their operations are within this context. I keep however, butting up against Greens fans who continue to insist this is not how the party operates, when all evidence is to the contrary.

  154. confessions

    poroti:

    😀

    Carn Swannies!

  155. bemused

    William Bowe@1133


    Yeah, Kirsti Marshall being kicked out of parliament for feeding her 11-day-old baby in 2003.

    Oh, sorry, forgot to mention her milk-swollen breasts, which were the most offensive thing to men.


    Maybe, but the Speaker who ordered Marshall from the chamber, on the grounds that her infant was not a member of parliament and hence not allowed to be on the floor, was Judy Maddigan.

    William, you are interrupting the stream of rampant misandry.

    You have denied it’s existence before. Are you starting to see it now?

  156. zoidlord

    Well at least the Greens do something.

    National Party just hide somewhere in the background, making themselves non-existent.

  157. Psephos

    This would have to be silliest evening’s proceedings here for some time.

    I move the House do now adjourn.

  158. poroti

    confessions

    Back in your box, Swannies now down 42-41 😀

  159. guytaur

    How about this.

    You can be proud of Rudd because he did do the apology get the changes to law through giving more equality. Thats to gays as well as the First People.

    He set the narrative to the point even today Abbott has to pretend he wants that equality.

    Gillard got heaps of great legislation through in the face of an opposition trashing conventional behaviour in and outside of the parliament. Of that legislation which NDIS and Gonski are most connected to her period as PM.

    The Greens supported and to this day are supporting most of that legislation put through by Labor.

    Honestly there is much more to admire of the politicians than to critique through the Rudd Gillard years which is what history will remember with the footnote of so much potential lost through division letting Abbott becoming PM.

    Its that division between Labor factions and the Greens that was masterfully exploited by Abbott’s team. So remember Abbott’s political stocks rise when debate becomes entrenched division.

  160. confessions

    poroti:

    LOL.

    Is the game being shown live over here?

  161. Martin B

    [The Greens may well have ushered through the Senate a majority of the then Labor govt’s platform but this doesn’t mean the party didn’t pick and choose its fights in order to leverage a perception of being the ‘good guy’ off of the squabbling between Labor and coalition.]

    Well, d’uh. The ALP does the same, the Libs do the same, the Nats do the same, PUP do the same. Because it’s the business.

    This is of no real significance. The substantial claim is that this politicking by the Greens was a significant source of the ALP government’s political problems. There’s no evidence offered for that and it is quite evidently highly questionable at best.

  162. Tom the first and best

    1150

    The Greens do operate politically. There would be little point to voting for the Greens if they just rubber stamped everything the ALP put up. The decision was taken on the CPRS to seek a better deal, the ALP having made its scheme less effective through a deal with the Liberals, but then the ALP unexpectedly just dropped the issue. The Greens misjudged the ALP and specifically Rudd, which is not something the ALP has any justification for attacking anybody for as they did the same thing with more knowledge of him.

  163. victoria

    Labor will defend the four pillars banking policy that helped the country through the global financial crisis http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/leave-four-pillars-policy-alone-bowen-20140620-3aj8t.html … #auspol
    8:17 PM – 20 Jun 2014
    Leave Four Pillars policy alone: Bowen
    The Abbott government has dismissed reports that the four pillars banking policy is at risk as Labor says any change would be irresponsible.

  164. victoria

    [Andrew Leigh ✔ @ALeighMP
    Follow
    FOFA changes will make bankers richer & pensioners poorer- transcript of my interview on @666canberra: http://www.andrewleigh.com/political_forum_abc_canberra … #inequality
    12:51 PM – 20 Jun 2014]

  165. crikey whitey

    Venturing cautiously, into the current PB war. (Go Tigers)

    A baby was shrilling as Tom Koutsantonis SA was delivering his budget.

    Although the comment from the Opposition was inaudible, Tom Koutsantonis said wtte ‘that is my child, you will leave my family out of this.’ Insistently.

    I can only assume that his wife and that young child were in the Chamber to witness his first Budget delivery. I think he has other children, so most likely they too were there.

    An important moment in their lives.

    Whomever it was making that objection, revealed the casual dismissal of women and children from political and familial involvement.

    Liberals…. Pffft!

  166. fredex

    from zoom to me
    [given that most of Labor’s policies consistently polled well – and continue to do so – I’m not sure that policies were the problem.]
    Partly agree. But note that policies did not get a focus in the report so they reckon you are wrong.
    In fact several of the ALP policies are better received in the community that the media likes to let on.
    Some time ago I linked to a Possum article titled, from memory, “What the Oz public believe” or vaguely similar, and that shows that generally the Oz public supports a lot of the context of ALP policy in detail but not in general eg more taxes for more services eg health schooling but, simultaneously and therefore paradoxically ‘small’ government.
    There are a whole stack of such that can be explained by the media distorting the reality.
    The media sets the ‘narrative’.

    Attack that narrative – its false.

    Classic examples are [1] CPRS and the later carbon price [2]the ‘stimulus’ in general with subsets for insulation and schools [3] Gonski [4] disabilities [5] NBN [mining tax], [6] deficit, [7] same sex marriage, [8]the environment eg barrier Reef, R. Murray…
    In each case the ALP wimped out and allowed the media to be the effective opposition with Abbott freeloading on their slipstream.
    The ALP is too polite, too tactful, too diplomatic – recognize the enemy – no its not the Greens – and attack them – the COALition as the mouthpiece of the vested interests via the msm.
    Look at those 8 policies, there are more, the ALP retreated/wimped out on each to a greater or lesser degree.
    Scared of the media.
    Yet the public broadly support them all.

    Worse, it continued with policies that are unpopular with large segments of the population, again scared of the way the media would have portrayed them if they had an independent approach – NT intervention, asylum, single mums and just yesterday Green Army support to hit a current note.

    Set the agenda, don’t follow that of Rupert.

    I fail to see how a report looking at why the ALP failed can do so without mentioning policies – ignoring some platitudes about being a ‘progressive party’ – and without mentioning Rupert.

    ps The only section that had merit in the report, IMO, was the focus on digital and social media and membership etc.
    The rest was pretty poor and, if followed, won’t help the party at all..

  167. zoidlord

    Meanwhile, in Asia, will have 100 million FTTP connections by the year end, currently adding new connection every 1,563 per hour:
    http://www.totaltele.com/view.aspx?ID=486725

    4 times the population of Australia.

  168. confessions

    [The Greens do operate politically. ]

    *hallelujah!*

    And once again I’m wondering why it takes Labor moving into opposition for Greens fans to finally concede this point.

  169. victoria

    [Stephen Murray @smurray38
    Follow
    Splendid piece from The Australian’s @CroweDM on the self inflicted political wounds of the Abbott Government http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/red-card-looming-amid-team-abbotts-own-goals/story-e6frg6zo-1226960449798#mm-premium … (PW)
    8:09 PM – 20 Jun 2014
    Red card looming amid Team Abbott’s own goals
    THERE was more than a hint of frustration last weekend when Tony Abbott got yet another question about whether East Jerusalem was “occupied” or “disputed” territory.]

  170. confessions

    [Labor will defend the four pillars banking policy that helped the country through the global financial crisis]

    I hope so. They have consumer groups on side as well.

  171. Rossmore

    The Rudd Gillard Wars is so 2013. 99.9% of the electorate no longer gives a fig.

  172. WeWantPaul

    [but then the ALP unexpectedly just dropped the issue]

    LOL I’ve seen some ridiculous claims about Rudd’s concession that the senate including the greens had rejected action on climate change x times (was it three?) and that there was clearly no choice but to wait for a more intelligent senate, but to call it unexpectedly dropping the issue is by far the most ridiculous suggestion I’ve ever seen.

  173. Martin B

    [And once again I’m wondering why it takes Labor moving into opposition for Greens fans to finally concede this point.]

    I can’t speak for others but I’ve articulated this position consistently since I first posted here before the last government was even a thing.

  174. Tom the first and best

    1169

    They could and should have gone to a DD after the CPRS rejection, if not earlier in the term. At the very least the ALP should have kept up the policy pressure in public.

  175. Rossmore

    @stokely: Heartbreaking. 200,000 kids tested by the Fukushima Medical Uni are suffering pre-cancerous thyroid abnormalities. http://t.co/BVg2ZPrGmJ

  176. Rossmore

    Apparently Richo in a paywalled The Oz piece reckons the ALP would be beaten in a double dissolution.

  177. guytaur

    Cheer Cheer the Red and the White 🙂

  178. Bushfire Bill

    Eh?

    Michael Lawler (Kathy Jackson’s boyfriend and Fair Work commissioner) seeks leave to appear for her as a barrister, by video link, in a case where she is defending herself against allegations of corruption by her own union, the HSU.

    This is getting weird.

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/life/life-display/jacksonville-conflict-of-interest,6593

  179. WeWantPaul

    [They could and should have gone to a DD after the CPRS rejection, if not earlier in the term. At the very least the ALP should have kept up the policy pressure in public.]

    It was policy and stayed policy at least until Gillard introduced the idea of the assembley, presumably an idea to try and undo the destruction of popular support for action on climate change Abbott and the Greens and brought.

    A double dissolution would have smashed labor into almost nothing, as the libs and greens both attacked labor one from each side. It was the greens that meant a DD election on the issue was impossible.

  180. zoidlord

    @Rossmore/1173

    So why has Abbott backed down from Double Dissolution, about 4 times already?

  181. Bushfire Bill

    [@stokely: Heartbreaking. 200,000 kids tested by the Fukushima Medical Uni are suffering pre-cancerous thyroid abnormalities. http://t.co/BVg2ZPrGmJ%5D

    If true, it kinda puts the shame the opinions expressed by a few here recently that nuclear accidents were rare enough and harmless enough to render nuclear energy a viable long-term energy source.

    I suppose 4.5 billions years half life of decaying uranium isn’t that a long time, by Big Bang standards.

  182. Martin B

    [They could and should have gone to a DD after the CPRS rejection, if not earlier in the term.]

    Exactly. ALP fantasists who want somehow to blame the Greens vote on the CPRS for the rise of Abbott should perhaps reflect on their own party’s failure to call an election against a new but unpopular opposition leader at a time when support for the government was high, on an issue that had broad popular support.

    Nah, let’s try and blame the Greens.

  183. Martin B

    [A double dissolution would have smashed labor into almost nothing, as the libs and greens both attacked labor one from each side. It was the greens that meant a DD election on the issue was impossible.]

    Absolute piffle.

  184. Tom the first and best

    1179

    They should have gone against Nelson in 2008, as soon as there was a post Senate changeover trigger.

  185. guytaur

    “@GlennFowlerAEU: Question: If ‘school choice’ is good, why does Finland not provide any and still lead the world in quality and equity?”

    Win the education debate. Shove Finland in the face of the LNP every time.

  186. shellbell

    [Cheer Cheer the Red and the White]

    Too true.

    Richmond should enter a competition where you only play for two quarters.

    Clear air for the Swans until we play Hawthorn on 26 July which will be a good opportunity to see who we are buying for next year.

  187. confessions

    [They could and should have gone to a DD after the CPRS rejection, if not earlier in the term.]

    Yeah they could have. Except the ‘Look at me, aren’t I frickin amazeballs!’ leader the party had at the time didn’t want to trash his personal ratings.

    The rest as they say, is history.

  188. WeWantPaul

    [A double dissolution would have smashed labor into almost nothing, as the libs and greens both attacked labor one from each side. It was the greens that meant a DD election on the issue was impossible.

    Absolute piffle.]

    so you say, I think your view is absurd, and well we can’t run that hypothetical dd election that never happened because the ALP didn’t think it was a wise thing to do.

  189. WeWantPaul

    [Yeah they could have. Except the ‘Look at me, aren’t I frickin amazeballs!’ leader the party had at the time didn’t want to trash his personal ratings.]

    LoL we have been drinking tonight I assume that is absurd.

  190. Rossmore

    Zoidlord 1177 Agree. Richo flies all sorts of preposterous kites.

  191. guytaur

    @seanbedlam: Protester attacks Julie Bishop’s car my arse. I was there and if that was an attack I’m Captain Cook and this tweet is a pigeon. #auspol

    😆

  192. zoomster

    fred

    [. But note that policies did not get a focus in the report so they reckon you are wrong.]

    Er, no. That demonstrates that they thought the policies weren’t the problem.

    [In fact several of the ALP policies are better received in the community that the media likes to let on.]

    Wot I said.

    [Look at those 8 policies, there are more, the ALP retreated/wimped out on each to a greater or lesser degree.
    Scared of the media.
    Yet the public broadly support them all.]

    Er, what? The ALP did not retreat or wimp out on the policies you mention.

    You seem to be projecting – in the case of ssm, for example – what you thought the ALP should have as a policy rather than what the ALP actually had as a policy.

    [Worse, it continued with policies that are unpopular with large segments of the population..]

    Two of the four policies you mention might tick those boxes. But you’re being contradictory here – one moment arguing that the ALP should stick with policies regardless of their popularity or media reception and the other saying they should have been courageous enough to junk ones regardless of their popularity or media reception.

    And Labor passing The Green Army legislation doesn’t make The Green Army ‘Labor policy’.

    [I fail to see how a report looking at why the ALP failed can do so without mentioning policies..]

    Because policies weren’t part of the problem.

    […and without mentioning Rupert…]

    Because Labor reviews what it did during the campaign, not what someone else did.

  193. confessions

    [A double dissolution would have smashed labor into almost nothing, as the libs and greens both attacked labor one from each side.]

    No babe. Your boy had the public on his side on climate back then. He should’ve called a DD election and made a point of it.

    At the very least it would’ve most likely herded off Abbott as LOTO.

  194. Tom the first and best

    1185

    Not calling a DD during the first term was a bad idea. History has shown that. Carbon pricing could have been passed with an ALP majority in the HoR and the ALP and the Greens in the Senate. The ALP should have gone against Nelson in the second half of 2008.

  195. guytaur

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Looks like a fiery political debate on Lateline appearing to me like another loss for the Liberals. PPL

  196. Rossmore

    Watching Brandis’ 7.30 interview with Sarah Ferguson the other night got the distinct impression he’d been completely smacked down by Bishop. And she has secured Abbott’s agreement that Brandis needs to butt out of foreign affairs. I suspect the first Abbott reshuffle will see a demotion for Brandis as everything he touches goes arse up.

  197. WeWantPaul

    [No babe. Your boy had the public on his side on climate back then. He should’ve called a DD election and made a point of it.]

    Well babe if the Hon PM who you consider exhibited the following characteristic:

    [ ‘Look at me, aren’t I frickin amazeballs!’ ]

    thought he would win a DD that very attitude you claim he hadwould have driven him to one because nothing would have been better for him than a second win and a second term and nicer senate.

    Either he wasn’t all about himself (and based on what I can see it seems he didn’t lack self confidence) or he thought a DD election would be a bad idea. No doubt Gillard and the kitchen cabinet agreed on this. So your gal was no doubt in the same boat. No convenient for you interesting view of history I suppose.

  198. WeWantPaul

    [Not calling a DD during the first term was a bad idea.]

    Well it may or may not have been, removing a PM and giving obvious lies as the reason probably wasn’t a great idea in hindsight either.

    [The ALP should have gone against Nelson in the second half of 2008.]

    This might be right, I don’t know what I think, but against Abbott post Turnbull would have been a disaster.

  199. guytaur

    @CarbonTaxFan: http://t.co/vpOAROoLoX Didn’t your mum tell you….

  200. Oakeshott Country

    Rossmore@1172
    Where does the 200,000 figure come from. The article you pointed to is derived from
    http://evacuatefukushimanow.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/福島県の甲状腺がん-fukushima-children-thyroid-cancer-cases-spreading-to-their-lymph-nodes-and-lungs/
    Which, while not being a peer reviewed scientific article and obviously with an agenda, says of the nearly 300,000 kids tested 0.7% or 2,069 had a nodule > 5mm or a cyst >2cm. It does not analyse this number further but cysts are not pre-malignant and nor are most nodules.

    An interesting counter argument is here:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/09/fukushima-children-debate-thyroid-cancer-japan-disaster-nuclear-radiation
    Is this apparent rise due to radiation, given that the measured release was less than 20msiev or is it that mass screening for cancer picks up cancers that may go undetected and be indolent for many years?

  201. William Bowe

    [If true, it kinda puts the shame the opinions expressed by a few here recently that nuclear accidents were rare enough and harmless enough to render nuclear energy a viable long-term energy source.]

    Author Harvey Wasserman’s “Solartopia Green Power & Wellness Show is at http://www.progressiveradionetwork.com, and he edits http://www.nukefree.org.”

  202. confessions

    WWP:

    What? Your comment makes no sense unless you are denying the polling your boy got during Labor’s first term in govt.

  203. Martin B

    [so you say, I think your view is absurd]

    The view that a first-term government with a popular leader enjoying a ~53/47 or better poll advantage would comfortably win an election against a new but widely disliked LOTO?

    That’s an absurd view?

    Sure. {maintains eye contact, backs away slowly}

    [and well we can’t run that hypothetical]

    Then kindly stop running the hypothetical about the Greens voting for the CPRS. Thanks.

  204. Psephos

    Even if Fukushima in the long run does kill 2,000 or 20,000 or 200,000 Japanese, that is still less than the number who will die if we don’t stop burning carbon. If we can do that by turning to renewables, fine. But the evidence at present is that we can’t, at least not for a long time. In the meantime, turning from coal to gas is the best short-term option, and from carbon to nuclear is the best medium-term option. No-one will be more pleased to me if we get developments in renewables that changes that calculation, but we should plan on the basis that we won’t.

  205. WeWantPaul

    [WWP:

    What? Your comment makes no sense unless you are denying the polling your boy got during Labor’s first term in govt.]

    Well if you are saying, like Tom that he should have gone early against Nelson (i can’t remember the exact timing of the trigger and Nelsons demise) his polling was good, I’m not sure this would have stayed good during a DD where both Nelson and the Greens said how crap the CPRS was. I think I lean to the view support for Labor and the CPRS would have crumbled, like it later did.

    I had assumed you were talking DD against Abbott, and I apologise if i got that wrong, but I’m 130% convinced labor would have been smashed (much worse than 2013)if they’d taken the CPRS to a DD against Abbott and the Greens both of whom had established a position that it was absolutely dreadful and seemed to have convinced quite a lot of the public they were right.

  206. lyndajcla

    I’m here and rarely post.

    Thanks Kezza2…I enjoyed your 8:30

  207. mari

    OMG

    No wonder ALP have problems was on twitter where there is a war on also between Rudd/Gillard supporters come on here and the same thing

    I tweeted Obviously want Tony Abbott and LNP to win in 2016, as unless united that is what will happened

    To their credit just about everyone retweeted and favourited that tweet, hopefully people will also take heed on PB

    Anyway off to another island tomorrow, where internet is not good so probably about 13 days without internet. The place I go to has just had wifi put on(not for the guests though) but they have told me I can use if I want but very weak signal. I won’t get up the steep steps with my pulled muscle to their house on top of rooms to access

    All the best

  208. guytaur

    Mari

    Have fun 🙂

  209. Everything

    The Lib guy on Lateline is brilliant

  210. Tom the first and best

    1202

    Nelson was long gone before the CPRS came along. This was before any major mess-ups by Rudd became obvious.

    The Abbott Coalition and the Greens were attacking he CPRS from different ends (a much easier position to defend than them both attacking it from the same angle), the Coalition would have been able to be attacked over its flip-flopping on its deal and the Greens` vote would not have gone down like in 2013 and so the Senate would have become more workable. Any talking of it being worse than 2013 is ridiculous.

  211. Rossmore

    Oakshott 1197 No idea. Just linked to the article which stated:

    More than 48 percent of some 375,000 young people—nearly 200,000 kids—tested by the Fukushima Medical University near the smoldering reactors now suffer from pre-cancerous thyroid abnormalities, primarily nodules and cysts. The rate is accelerating.

    Cant speak to the authority of the claim but if verified it is quite shocking … Almost half of one generation condemned to the likelihood of an early death from cancer

  212. WeWantPaul

    [If we can do that by turning to renewables, fine. But the evidence at present is that we can’t, at least not for a long time. ]

    What evidence is that?

    I was reading just this week in a respected US Oil and Gas news service, analysis of solar that pointed out small things like that the cost of Solar had fallen 70% since 2000 and that solar is already price competitive in a number of circumstances.

    Views held until recently that solar costs would stabilise with industry restructure have faded to expectations of a further fall of 20% by 2020.

    On the other hand the gas is good view that was held very strongly a couple of years ago has been weakened by studies of fugitive emissions, but then again it seems they can be reduced where effort is put in.

    I think renewables are potentially much much closer than many people think, but suffer a lot from the little engine that didn’t both. It doesn’t matter how short a hill is you never get to the top if you decide not to try.

    I don’t give them a lot of weight and I haven’t read them in the same kind of publications as the oil and gas industry publication but there are already some views renewables have already crossed over and are more cost effective than oil and gas, certainly the industry is taking talk of ‘stranded’ assets seriously enough to bother to deny it is the case.

    It is interesting but given Australia’s advantage, particularly in solar, it is a crime that successive Australian governments haven’t gone hard in this direction. Perhaps a large scale project that used solar to generate power and the Snowy Hydro to store and / or distribute that power.

    It is very disappointing.

  213. sprocket_

    I wonder if this was one of the topics Obama talked about with Abbott? All influential leaders want the best for their daughters after all

    [President Barack Obama and wife Michelle want their daughters Malia and Sasha to get a taste of what it’s like to work for minimum wage. The president and first lady both worked minimum-wage jobs before they went to law school and tell Parade magazine they want the same sort of experience for their teenage daughters. ]

    http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolreport/2014/06/20/obamas-want-daughters-to-get-taste-of-minimum-wage-life-and-more-must-reads/

  214. Rossmore

    Psephos … I cant understand why it is beyond the wit of this sunshine and wind endowed country that it cant seem to emulate a poorly wind and sunshine endowed country like Germany that recently announced 70% of its energy on a recent day was derived from renewables.

  215. WeWantPaul

    [the Coalition would have been able to be attacked over its flip-flopping on its deal and the Greens` vote would not have gone down like in 2013 and so the Senate would have become more workable. Any talking of it being worse than 2013 is ridiculous.]

    OK so if you are talking Abbott v Rudd on a CPRS DD, I am of the view that the Libs would have had more seats in the HoR than they won in 2013 and I think they would have had a majority in the senate as well. The greens may well have done better but it would largely have been at labors cost.

    And yes I know the greens and liberals were attacking it from opposite sides and for different reasons (libs thought climate change was crap, greens thought the politics in being against it was good) but I personally think that would have been much harder to counter.

  216. fredex

    Blimey zoom the report doesn’t mention the major reason the ALP lost popularity whether led by Rudd or Gillard.
    The media.

    Address that problem cos it won’t go away.

    Don’t sidetrack, hand wave as if its not important.

    Do you want me to go through each of the policies I mentioned, all dozen or so of them. and illustrate how media pressure caused the ALP to backtrack, flip flop, abandon, lose control of the message?

    One from Rudd – ‘Insulatgate’, apologise, scapegoat Garrett – totally unnecessary.
    One from Gillard – deficit – obsession with a surplus which was never going to eventuate.
    Climate change for both – the ALP should have pointed to Bolt and the Australian and laughed out loud, very loudly and frequently and championed, with Greens support, the price on carbon – the public support was wasted with mucking around and kowtowing to the polluters – even Wong said so early on.
    SSM is popular yet the ALP won’t support it outright. Lost opportunity – scared of the media and the churches [ditto for chaplains Gillard style].

    “And Labor passing The Green Army legislation …” makes a mockery of unions fighting for wages and conditions for workers for longer than I’ve been alive and there are many unionists out there wondering what the hell is going in the “labour/Labor” party.
    No training, no compo, no OH&S, no decent wage – what the hell are they thinking?

    It doesn’t matter what the ALP does in a campaign Rupert and his mates will attempt to crucify it.
    having policies that you stick to and sell will help but you [the ALP that is] will still have to combat a hostile media.

    Here, just to get that message across look at Greg Jericho’s collection of front pages and tell me that’s not a problem.
    He scores them as:
    Anti-ALP 36
    Pro- LNP 27
    and a stack of ‘difficult to judge cos of multiple headlines’

    And that’s just during the campaign – it is ongoing for 3 years.

    Interested in the ALP winning in the future?
    Put some thought into the media problem.

  217. bemused

    Rossmore@1210

    Oakshott 1197 No idea. Just linked to the article which stated:

    More than 48 percent of some 375,000 young people—nearly 200,000 kids—tested by the Fukushima Medical University near the smoldering reactors now suffer from pre-cancerous thyroid abnormalities, primarily nodules and cysts. The rate is accelerating.

    Cant speak to the authority of the claim but if verified it is quite shocking … Almost half of one generation condemned to the likelihood of an early death from cancer

    Alarmism.

    I believe Thyroid Cancer is one that can be treated fairly readily with a good success rate.

    Far more cancers are caused each year from radioactive fly ash from burning coal. Oh, and then there are the heavy metals and other toxins.

    Keep an eye on Morwell.

  218. Everything

    Screening for thyroid cancers will find lots of them, so we need a proper study for Fukushima. The last presentation I saw on this from Japan did not show significant evidence of harm (YET)…

  219. Rossmore

    Bemused I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss this Fukashima report. Even if treatable, and you claim it is, any form of of cancer is a life changing event that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. And yes I agree the Morwell fire is no laughing matter either with very serious long term potential impacts on the health of the community.

  220. swamprat

    The greatest contribution the ALP could make to Australian democracy would be to support a honest proportional electoral system to, for the first time in our history, elect Parliaments that actually reflected voters intent.

    Australia will be badly served by an ALP which hogs the votes but who’s policy position is shadow-Rightist and who’s raison d’être is getting places for apparatchiks numbers men/women.

  221. swamprat

    Everything

    We need a proper study into the effects of the LNP’s class war on behalf of the super-rich.

  222. Everything

    We have those data:

    Lower unemployment
    Lower interest rates
    Higher non-farm real wage rises
    High budget surpluses (in fact ALP has been net deficits)

  223. fredex

    Oops didn’t link to Greg Jericho’s collection of campaign front pages.

    http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/election-2013-newspapers.html

  224. Everything

    “Send in the clown” was quite effective!!!!

  225. bemused

    Everything@1222

    We have those data:

    Lower unemployment
    Lower interest rates
    Higher non-farm real wage rises
    High budget surpluses (in fact ALP has been net deficits)

    You really must do something to get over your surplus fetish.

    After all, a company with no debt would be accused of having a ‘lazy balance-sheet’.

    Taken on it’s own, a surplus or deficit is a meaningless metric.

    Your other claims are equally dodgy.

  226. Everything

    Its not having one deficit, its not having a surplus for a quarter century.

  227. zoidlord

    Someone has a broken record.

  228. William Bowe

    [The greatest contribution the ALP could make to Australian democracy would be to support a honest proportional electoral system to, for the first time in our history, elect Parliaments that actually reflected voters intent.]

    The problem being that the voters whose intentions you wish to see actually reflected don’t actually want such a thing.

  229. zoidlord

    “if you tell a lie long enough it becomes the truth”.

  230. swamprat

    We have this data:

    aged pensions to be cut in long term
    under 30s to be denied support when unemployed
    ALL doctors visit to get $7 charge regardless of circumstances
    ALL pathology tests to have various upfront charges, regardless of circumstances
    super-rich superannuates to get a tax cut
    any downloaders to be hit by legislation to protect corporations
    super-rich coal industry to protected against cleaner opposition
    Public funds (taxes from all, including non-religious) to fund only wacko American funds to prey on children.
    Inevitable war to get poor kids killed for the LNP…..

  231. bemused

    Everything@1226

    Its not having one deficit, its not having a surplus for a quarter century.

    There’s that fetish again.
    The appropriateness of a surplus or deficit is dependent on other economic conditions.

    At the present time, there is a fair amount of economic consensus that contractionary budgets are not appropriate as we have still not fully recovered from the GFC.

  232. zoidlord

    http://rt.com/usa/166352-us-total-debt-sixty-trillion/

    Young people at the forfront of private debt once again, because of decisions by old greedy white men.

  233. swamprat

    William Bowe @ 1228

    [The problem being that the voters whose intentions you wish to see actually reflected don’t actually want such a thing.]

    Do the voters equally “want” only a single member electorate? How many voters actually know anything about electoral system?

    But I bet lots of them are frustrated by the governments we have now.

    When was that properly surveyed?

    An MMP would give both single member electorates and a Parliament reflective of voters intent.

  234. zoidlord

    From the same website, $1 trillion dollar loan debt for Students:
    http://rt.com/usa/student-loan-debts-top-trillion-957/

    And we want the Coalition Party model ?

  235. Rossmore

    Everything 1226 Can you nominate a single large Oz company that has had a single annual budget surplus in the last 25 years?

  236. Everything

    bemused:

    In 40 years you would think there might be some circumstances to warrant a surplus or two. The ALP has hardly had any, and none at all for a quarter century.

  237. Rossmore

    Mod lib. Thought not.

  238. swamprat

    Everything

    [Its not having one deficit, its not having a surplus for a quarter century.]

    The “deficit” is a LNP unicorn, effectively used (albeit with support of an illiterate MSM). It illustrates your obsession with “money” before “people”

    You think an “economy” is measured by the monetary numbers it generates when in reality its by the numbers of peoples it supports.

  239. zoidlord

    The continued nonsense of Surplus is pathetic responses by liberals, surplus is useless without private debt being contained.

    And private debt is hardly being contained because liberals policies forces of the population to borrow morrow.

  240. bemused

    Everything@1236

    bemused:

    In 40 years you would think there might be some circumstances to warrant a surplus or two. The ALP has hardly had any, and none at all for a quarter century.

    Get over your fetish and examine economic conditions at the time.

  241. bemused

    Goodnight all.

  242. Rossmore

    This whole surplus fetish, this debt and deficit disaster theme is a fetish. Ive been on this mortal coil for close to 60 yeArs and have never been in surplus. Am I some kind of failure?different story of course if my assets are counted…..

  243. William Bowe

    [Do the voters equally “want” only a single member electorate? How many voters actually know anything about electoral system?]

    No doubt most of them are a bit blurry about the mechanics of it, but I think Australian voters have made it clear enough over time that what they want is majority government. Granted that I haven’t held a referendum on the matter lately – but they did in the UK in 2011 on preferential voting and the verdict went two-to-one against, in very large part because it was felt it would increase the incidence of hung parliaments. I’m quite sure a vote on PR in Australia wouldn’t do even that well.

  244. Everything

    Do companies spend more than they earn in income now do they?

  245. caf

    Psephos:

    [However, the Zionist movement did not claim “ownership” of Israel. It claimed the right of Jews to live there.]

    “Living there” inevitably leads to “ownership”, as (to pick just one example) the Mexicans discovered in Texas.

  246. briefly

    1222
    Everything

    While the relevant, contemporary data go to prove….Incomes will always be lower under a Liberal government.

    The reduction in median incomes is an objective of LNP rule, reflected in their notorious Work Choices bungling and in their current ideological assault on social security, inter-generational mobility and personal accomplishment.

  247. ___cog___

    A budget surplus seems to be some sort of indicator of government incompetence. Taxing people more than you need to spend.

    Also seems to indicate a desire to contract the economy.

  248. Everything

    Reckless spending is what comes of having unionists in charge of treasury.

    Money is easy when it flows effortlessly from compulsory dues which you can then slush away in brothels at your leisure…

    :devil:

  249. bemused

    Everything@1245

    Do companies spend more than they earn in income now do they?

    Just caught this latest piece of rubbish.
    A company is not a country.

    A company finances it’s operations from shareholders equity and debt. It’s purpose is to make a profit. That is not the purpose of a government.

    The role of government is to provide economic stability by regulating the level of aggregate demand.

    If inflationary pressures emerge it will put the brakes on by running a surplus.

    If the economy is weak, inflation low and demand weak, it will run a deficit.

    Please stop displaying your ignorance, it is embarrassing.

    Definitely going now.

  250. briefly

    [1236
    Everything]

    The LNP during the Howard/Costello era never ran a surplus that did not depend on selling assets. They ran a high-taxing/high-spending regime and then trashed public finance for decades to follow. Whenever the public sector ran a surplus, the private sector ran corresponding deficits, such that the private sector now has higher debts than at any time since the Depression.

    The LNP’s claims to be sound managers are simply fraudulent.

  251. Rossmore

    Had I run my life on the basis of achieving a cash surplus every few years I have no doubt my family would have missed out on many opportunities. This debt obsession IMHO has almost religious overtones … it simply makes no sense in a modern capitalist economy where debt – private or public, has been the engine room of 20 + years of economic growth and prosperity..

  252. swamprat

    W. Bowe Esq @ 1244

    [I think Australian voters have made it clear enough over time that what they want is majority government.]

    I find this a peculiar statement. I think the “fear”of coalitions is a beat-up. We have few examples. Most of it is just media beat-up.

    Almost no “democratic” country has an blatantly unfair system like Australia: only UK (Westminster); Canada; USA; Australia, as far as I know. The other 90 or so manage without a legislated “majority” government.

    I think the fear of a more accurate voting system is controlling Party/Media generated.

  253. Oakeshott Country

    Rossmore what I was trying to point out was that even a very superficial look at the article shows it to be absolute tripe.
    Unfortunately some people without a scientific background will believe it and the debate on nuclear energy will be prevented by someone willing to deliberately deceive to push their agenda.

  254. briefly

    1249
    Everything

    Reckless spending is what comes of having…idiotic ideologues in office who think that trashing social incomes is a good idea; idiots who think that trashing the Carbon Price Mechanism is good economics; idiots who think that increasing fuel excise and taxes on medical services will improve household confidence….Reckless LNP stupidity that is already driving down consumer spending and harming demand for labour.

  255. Rossmore

    Everything, still waiting for your nomination of an Oz company that has run a single annual budget surplus in the last 25 years. Are they all, like the ALP, complete failures for failing to do so.

  256. WeWantPaul

    [Do companies spend more than they earn in income now do they?]

    Many many companies do. That income is a bad thing you have to pay tax.

  257. zoidlord

    Yes, companies do spend more than they earn.

    Mining do this on a regular bases, this is why they hate paying for taxes, and also want regulatory certainty.

  258. swamprat

    zoidlord

    [Mining do this on a regular bases, this is why they hate paying for taxes, and also want regulatory certainty.]

    It’s why they need upfront/input subsidised diesel rebates.

    Everything will agree that foreign miners should get such rebates before they ever produce anything.

    You know it makes sense…. (if your aim is to enrich your mates)

  259. Everything

    Are there no Oz companies making a profit?

    YIKES!

    We changed Government just in time, then 🙂

  260. WeWantPaul

    [We changed Government just in time, then :)]

    LoL yeah higher income tax for business and an ecomony crippled by a stupid treasurer who still talks it down, something an opposition finance spokesman should be dismissed for. Dangerously stupid.

  261. zoidlord

    God some people are blind as a bat.

  262. deblonay

    Re Govt policy on use of term”disputed ” rather than “Occupied Territories in Palestine….which pleased the jewish lobby

    Lara Tingle in the Fin. Review today suggests that much jewish money and support was directed to the Libs at the last elections rather than to Labor …. ‘Perhaps this was Abbott’s pay-off for their support

  263. Rossmore

    Everything 1260 getting closer. Yes, many Oz companies are highly profitable year in year out as reflected in their share price. But I doubt any one of them have ever run a cash budget surplus. If you can nominate a single one I’d love to hear… Go on, check your voluminous spreadsheets, name me a single Oz company that has reported an annual cash surplus in the last 25 years. i’ll spare your misery, you cant.

  264. Everything

    Don’t worry about it Rossmore, now that the Liberals are in charge the companies will be doing much better than they were under the ALP.

  265. briefly

    [1265
    Everything….

    now that the Liberals are in charge the companies will be doing much better than they were under the ALP.]

    Not if Hockey has anything to do with it. Property has peaked and started falling, car sales are weakening, real incomes are falling, consumer and business confidence has crashed, investment plans are being wound back, labour demand has fallen from its peak under the previous government, State finances are struggling…the LNP are living up their potential and completely wrecking the place.

  266. zoidlord

    Australian debt and demand went up the last time the liberals came into power:
    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2014/2/18/economy/australia-asleep-wheel

    Shows the period where private debt (including business) in the years John Howard were in power.

  267. Rossmore

    Everything1265 Yes that’s the conventional LP article of faith. The retail sector is currently discovering that the theory doesn’t work in practice,

    Oh ye still waiting on your nomination of an Oz company that has run a single budget surplus in the last 25 years. Surely there could be one??? Surely there’s a stout, reputable, business that can show the Federal Government how to run a business surplus and succeed. Surely there would be one?

  268. swamprat

    Now the Liberals are in charge:

    1. We will go to war (that’s top priority)

    2. EVERY legal change will be for only three reasons:
    1 to support our Yankee Masters
    2 to move wealth from the poor to the rich (LNP)
    3 to get LNP re-elected.

    The ALP priority response: which Union official is next in line for being an MP?

  269. briefly

    [1265/Everything]

    The LNP are keeping up their lifetime traditions…breaking promises, telling lies, smashing things, telling lies, driving inequality, telling lies, creating division, telling lies….

  270. briefly

    [The ALP priority response: which Union official is next in line for being an MP?]

    John Curtin?
    Ben Chifley?
    Bob Hawke?

    Great unionists and great leaders.

  271. fredex

    I dunno who started the ‘do companies run at a loss’ whatever line but whoever it was doesn’t understand company finances and tax *cough* mitigation.
    Here’s 1 recent example.
    Fella owns $1.8 billion wealth.
    His companies generate $154 million profit.
    His corporate tax is .. wait for it …$55,000.
    So he is recruited to be Tony’s financial adviser to the COALition.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/lib-adviser-repays-43m-tax-20140523-38ufq.html

    Recently there have been examples of international companies operating in Oz, making millions of $$$s profit but paying no tax. Off shore tax haven and all that.
    Somebody here should be able to remember some of the names of those companies.

    In addition there are the companies that operate around my area who exist solely to deliberately make losses.
    Dozens of them.
    One acquaintance of mine said of a mutual friend who runs a business locally “Joe [not his real name] works really hard to make sure his business runs at a loss”.
    Its SOP around here for most, probably awfully close to all, companies.

    Or there is the mate of mine who got promoted to boss accountant of one of Australia’s major companies when his boss got the sack cos the company made a profit.
    My mates job was to shuffle numbers and other things around to make sure the company appeared [note that word] to be losing money.
    It made it elsewhere in places where tax was lower.
    All legal.

    Yep companies deliberately run at a loss.
    Well officially anyway.

  272. Everything

    briefly: what lies?

  273. briefly

    1273
    Everything

    briefly: what lies?

    What lies?…Surely you mean “Who Lies?” Answer….Liberals.

  274. Everything

    Is this reassuring for you?

  275. briefly

    They lie about the economy. They lie about the budget. They lie about climate change. They lie about medicare, incomes for pensioners, education and unemployment insurance. They lie for breakfast, morning tea and lunch. For dinner they have some more.

  276. swamprat

    Briefly: 1271

    [John Curtin?
    Ben Chifley?
    Bob Hawke?

    Great unionists and great leaders.]

    Bullock
    Thomson
    Ferguson
    et al.

  277. briefly

    [1275
    Everything

    Is this reassuring for you?]

    Is that a silly question? The LNP are involved in the daily betrayal of the country’s best interests. They are a disgrace. They should be thrown from office for deception, treachery and contempt.

  278. mari

    Today for the first time for agesI read some of Mod Lib comments, why does anyone answer them? he(after reading some comments today has to be a he) is just hoping for attention?

    Anyway will go back to the usual scrolling past

    Lovely evening here on Milos for my last evening, not a cloud in the sky and 28 celsius at coming up to 6pm

  279. Everything

    Not a silly question at all.

    You seem to feel better when you are able to vent your hatred of the Liberal party.

    This delusion you have the the Liberal party is out there to hurt as many Australians as it can is quite strong.

    The data that Australians have done quite well under Liberal governments, doesn’t sit well with you apparently.

  280. Everything

    Yes, I scroll past them too….

  281. swamprat

    The LNP is essentially a Mafia… any corporatist interest can buy and own them;

    The coal industry
    international mining
    international finance and banking
    USA Christian fundamentalists

    The only group that does not own ten are ordinary Australians

    The only defence ordinary Australians have is the ALP

    poor fellow my country………

  282. briefly

    swamprat…

    Anti-labor bigotry is usually a Liberal character fault. What did unions ever do to you that make you want to climb on the same platform as Hockey, Andrews, Robb, Abbott, Joyce…et al?

  283. swamprat

    briefly

    I am very pro unions.

    I am very anti ALP MPs being chosen because of stitch-ups.

    The fact that two people in WA can agree to appoint a person to winnable sense position regardless of his Liberal loyalties is to me illustrative of the meaningless and valueless of the ALP.

    The fact that intellectuals like you consider that this is normal is very sad to me.

  284. briefly

    1280
    Everything

    The data is quite the contrary from that which you assert…Incomes will always be lower under a Liberal Government….the proof is there if anyone cares to look.

    Fraser…terrible recession, mismanaged the budget…Hawke/Keating rebuilt the economy, expanded the social wage, cut taxes….Howard cut social incomes and policies, implemented tax policies that worsened inequality, buggered up public finances and attempted to impose Wrok Choices…all aimed at harming the incomes of average households…

    Abbott….intent on wrecking the post-war social compact, destroying meaningful energy and environmental policies, stuffing up education, welfare, retirement incomes, minimum wages…on and on and on…

    What’s not to object to…!!

  285. briefly

    1284
    swamprat

    I think Labor should take real measures to further democratise itself, and this means unions will have to relinquish some of their power. Your language simply makes you appear hostile to Labor and unions…which rather begs the question why you might think they should be accountable to you or those who hold similar views?

  286. swamprat

    Everything Right Wing

    [This delusion you have the the Liberal party is out there to hurt as many Australians as it can is quite strong.]

    Haha what a joke.

    In my 60+ years of life my experience of the Liberal Party is began with the
    Vietnam war where it was compulsory to go and die for the Liberal Party whether you wanted to of not.

    I knew young men of 18 who were forced to go and kill in your Liberal War ands they were in fact killed though they were desperate no to go bt they had no choice.

    To me Evreything an LNP shithead like you says is determined by your grab-as-much-as i can-c; am-i-rich-enough-, am-i-fat-enough, am-i-yankee-enough….

  287. briefly

    Hi Mari….Greece sounds idyllic… 🙂

  288. swamprat

    Although, sadly the ALP is a shadow of its former self.

    Maybe Mar’in Ferguson should have been the ALP Leader

  289. swamprat

    briefly

    The ALP is not accountable to me at all.

    I have yet to meet a human that was.

    But in a duo ploy where the electoral system is so unequal, who can we complain about?

    Its either the increasibly right wing LNP or the increasingly right wing ALP

  290. swamprat

    night all may you rest peacefully in Murdohcia

  291. mari

    Briefly

    The Greek islands are wonderful (this time of year especially or in September) before and after the heat and crazy tourists. Unfortunately nor enjoying as much as I usually do with my pulled back muscle, the families I stay with are wonderful, organising to take the suitcase on and off the ferry,here in Milos he has a taxidriver mate in Athns who will come up to the ferry and take me to the Hilton then 2 days later will take me out to the airport. Even more important I won’t be ripped off. BTW not bad 2 bedroom unit for 45euros a night

  292. Fran Barlow

    Psephos

    [Even if Fukushima in the long run does kill 2,000 or 20,000 or 200,000 Japanese, that is still less than the number who will die if we don’t stop burning carbon. ]

    True, and one might add that if Fukushima had not opened in 1964 then Japan would absolutely have emitted somewhere between 30 and 50 times the CO2 it emitted from the Fukushima complex operation during those years.

    Fortunately, it’s most unlikely that as many as 200 people will die prematurely in the long run as a result of the disruption to the plant complex. The problem with Fukushima was that recommendations for independent power during a SCRAM incident (emergency shutdown) was not adopted in 1999, largely because the plant was slated for decommission. Had they done one or another, there’d have been no serious incident.

    Of course, building the plant at sea level, while cheaper, was mad. The 1960 Val Verde tidal wave reached Japan, so they ought to have known better. This was a failure of governance rather than the technology.

    [If we can do that by turning to renewables, fine. But the evidence at present is that we can’t, at least not for a long time. ]

    I don’t agree here. Certainly, including nuclear power in the mix makes things a good deal easier in theory and my party is wrong to oppose nuclear power on principle, but there’s no persuasive body of evidence that renewables alone couldn’t get us where we need to be on the timelines needed. The problem in Australia is that for obvious reasons, none of the parties will propose nuclear power. So the question is really — what other suite of technologies can we adopt to make rapid progress towards decarbonisation in the interim. We cannot afford to waste this time. If you’re in a hurry to get somewhere, and you don’t know when the next bus is coming, waiting about because the bus is more efficient than walking briskly and hitching is silly. If people agree with nuclear power in 2020 and we get it by 2035 covering the last 40% great, but in the meantime let’s end thermal coal and keep gas to a minimum.

    Renewables can do that, while at this stage and for the foreseeable future nuclear can’t do that. The coal people have their enemies wedged if we make this nuclear v renewables.

  293. jules

    […even a very superficial look at the article shows it to be absolute tripe.
    Unfortunately some people without a scientific background will believe it and the debate on nuclear energy will be prevented by someone willing to deliberately deceive to push their agenda.]

    O C – Can you please explain why this statement is valid?

    Less than 2% of kids are usually found to have thyroid nodules yet in this study nearly 50% had them. Ok so allowing for the increase in kids tested and the more sensitive testing methods … are you suggesting its normal for nearly half of all kids to have some sort of thyroid nodule or cyst? IE if we tested the population of the world using the same methods nearly 50% of all children would have some sort of thyroid nodule or cyst at any one time?

    Or are these figures somehow suspect.

    Or what?