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Federal Politics 2013-

Jul 21, 2014

Nielsen: 54-46 to Labor

Personal ratings for Clive Palmer and a preferred Treasurer question spice up a poll result that's otherwise much like all the others lately.

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What I believe will be the farewell Nielsen poll for the Fairfax papers shows no dividend to Tony Abbott of the carbon tax repeal or (so far) the MH17 response, with Labor’s lead up from 53-47 at last month’s poll to 54-46. The poll of 1400 respondents was conducted from Thursday to Sunday, from which you can draw your own conclusions about its likely responsiveness to what’s occurred over that time. Labor is up three points on the primary vote to 40%, with the Coalition steady at 39%, the Greens down one to 12% and Palmer United steady on 5%. However, Tony Abbott’s personal ratings have improved: his approval is up three to 38% with disapproval down four to 56%, the gap on preferred prime minister narrows from 47-40 to 46-41, and while Bill Shorten is down one on approval to 41% and up three on disapproval to 44%. Even more entertainingly, there are personal ratings for Clive Palmer (approval 37%, disapproval 51%) and a preferred treasurer poll (Joe Hockey’s lead narrowing from 51-34 in a poll conducted I-don’t-know-how-long-ago to 42-42 now.

UPDATE: Phil Coorey in the Financial Review relates results on the leaders’ personal characteristics; more from Michelle Grattan at The Conversation.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

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865 comments

865 thoughts on “Nielsen: 54-46 to Labor

  1. zoomster

    Puff

    I would have been with you all the way on that until my neice came along — but in a family of all boys, with a feminist role model mother, with her TV watching dictated by a sporting mad family, she’s the girliest thing I’ve ever met.

    As far as we can tell, it’s her – she was experimenting with fashion (mainly by wearing teatowels and stockings on her head) before she could walk.

  2. shellbell

    [564
    zoomster
    Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 8:58 pm | PERMALINK
    There was a brief vogue where teenage boys wore pink in the mid ’80s… and swore to me that they would still be doing so when they were adults.]

    I made no promises for the future

  3. pedant

    zoomster @ 564: So how many friends do you now have in the College of Cardinals?

  4. pedant

    I see it reported in the Courier Mail that Mr Newman wants to “seek meeting [sic] with judges in a bid to mend its fractured relationship with the judiciary”. I would have thought that for the judges to meet in such circumstances would in itself be a political action, which they could (and perhaps should) rightly refuse to undertake. If I were a Queensland judge, I would be much inclined to say to Mr Newman that he should meet with the Chief Justice, and thereby leave him hoist on his own petard.

  5. confessions

    [Bikies wear pink also; it would seem the voters have the same message for Newman.

    http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/brazen-bikies-pink-protest-proves-infectious/2080312/ ]

    And so the discussion about pink clothing comes full cycle to where it began however many hours ago.

  6. sceptic

    pedant

    ” If there’s a hung Parliament, such a deal would make PUP support for an ALP government more likely.”

    You don’t think Abbott would love the resultant sales pitch.

    There they go again Labor doing dodgy deals to get power….

  7. shellbell

    Pedant

    No judges, not even the deservedly maligned CJ, should be having clear the air meetings with the premier

  8. Centre

    Wear blue, wear pink, just don’t wear green!

  9. sceptic

    Newman…

    “We recognise that there are things we have done that have annoyed or upset Queenslanders,” the premier said after a Cabinet meeting on Monday.

    “I’m sorry today, if I’ve done things that have upset people.”

    So please please please vote for us & we will do you proper after the election..
    Are Queenslanders really that dumb?

  10. Just Me

    I have a niece who has flatly refused since day one to wear skirts or dresses, and who doesn’t favour the pink and fluffy look, but who is otherwise a normal adolescent girl, far as I can tell.

  11. pedant

    sceptic @ 573: No doubt he would give it a go, but it’s hardly an iron law of Australian politics that you should never form a minority government, Ms Gillard’s experience notwithstanding. When Mr Kennett lost his majority in 1999, there were commentators saying then that it would be better for the ALP not to form a minority government. My view at the time was that you should never give a snake a second chance; and the ALP, of course, thereafter ruled for 11 years.

  12. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    zoomster,
    i am in wangaraata this week so let’s meet up.

  13. pedant

    Shellbell @ 574: That’s certainly what I would have thought: to do so would be to concede the point that the relationship between the Executive and the Judiciary is somehow important.

  14. pedant

    And it’s really quite rich on Mr Newman’s part to suggest that voters didn’t understand his policies. In the case of the various attempts to unwind the Fitzgerald reforms, for example, it’s clear that the voters understood them all too well.

  15. shellbell

    Pedant

    Plus it would be followed up some statement by Newman about how both sides agree to communicate with each other better when the whole judiciary less one probably think he is an A grade knob.

  16. zoomster

    Puff

    it’s a date!

  17. kezza2

    frednk
    [There is your problem kessa2; there is not such thing as a boy’s only isle, and if you think there is it is your problem; and if you think it is marked by blue you have a real colour issue.]

    No, your problem.

    Or you haven’t been shopping for the past 30 years.

  18. pedant

    shellbell @ 582: If he can’t get them to come to the swearing in of his hand-picked boy, it’s hard to see how he will get them to a meeting of the type suggested. In which case, by even floating the idea, he’s just poked himself in the eye again. (The image of Prince Ruprecht in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, with the cork stuck on the end of a fork, springs to mind.)

  19. Martin B

    So the three things Newman has put his hand up for are all in the AGs dept. Is he preparing to throw Bleijie under the bus?

  20. sceptic

    Morrison surrenders before defeat… the first of many?

    Immigration minister Scott Morrison has granted a permanent visa to a refugee who arrived by boat, despite fighting the boy’s case in the High Court and signalling he would not be swayed when the court found against him.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/scott-morrison-backflips-and-grants-visa-to-boy-who-arrived-by-boat-20140721-3cbju.html#ixzz386OZ6nD4

  21. Diogenes

    [I was questioning why western media concern over MH 17 dwarfed that over the Israeli assault on Gaza.]

    1. Because Westerners were killed in one, not the other
    2. Because we identity more with people on a plane than living in Gaza
    3. Because ME violence isn’t news. It happens every day

    You could ask why the Left or Right concentrate so much on ME violence when it is trivial compared to violence in Africa.

  22. confessions

    [So the three things Newman has put his hand up for are all in the AGs dept. Is he preparing to throw Bleijie under the bus?]

    I’m guessing this, more so than replacing Newman with Nicholls would go a longer way to restoring trust with voters.

  23. pedant

    sceptic @ 587: At least one lawyer to whom I have spoken had a sense that Mr Morrison’s proposed reliance on a policy of not granting visas to people who had arrived “illegally” might have turned out to be an own goal, since it gave rise to the possibility that the whole concept of “illegality” of arrival could then be challenged in court. A successful challenge on those grounds could potentially leave a lot of people, including perhaps Mr Psephos here, with some egg on their faces.

  24. lefty e

    [After a savage defeat at Saturday’s Stafford byelection, the government will no longer force convicted bikies to wear pink uniforms, or serve their time in solitary confinement.]

    Id missed this part of it.

    What a heady mix of pointless and straight out weird.

  25. pedant

    lefty e @ 591: Well, that should shore up the bikie vote.

  26. bemused

    pedant@592

    lefty e @ 591: Well, that should shore up the bikie vote.

    Do the ones in gaol get a vote?

  27. Diogenes

    GG

    Trigg to leave the Crows to be CEO of Carlton.

    Good luck with that and may he bring you just as much success as he has showered on us. 😉

  28. kezza2

    zoomster
    [I would have been with you all the way on that until my neice (sic) came along — but in a family of all boys, with a feminist role model mother, with her TV watching dictated by a sporting mad family, she’s the girliest thing I’ve ever met.]

    And what’s that supposed to mean?
    There’s ya problem. Right there.

  29. Diogenes

    If you get a sentence of less than three years you can vote.

  30. slothy

    bemused @ 512

    I call for the full implementation of the Balfour Declaration as a starting point.

    it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine

    That is a nonsense, a fig leaf to hide the true intention. How do you plant tens of thousands on people on someone elses land without infringing the locals’ civil rights?

    What right did the British government have to even announce a policy for an area over which it had no control, and which is could not have made under international law even if it had been the mandate power.

    If you want that implemented then all the Jews will have to leave, or pile onto the relatively little land that was owned by Jews at the time, plus allow all the Palestinian refugees to return home. Good luck with that.

  31. lefty e

    Its a rubbish government, with half-baked draconian ideas, an outright w*nker for a leader, who no one likes,least of all his own MPs, some of the least competent ministers ever seen in this country, and mystifyingly arrogant about it all to boot.

    Strong Choices! #WTF

    And this, sadly, is Australian politics. Two major parties: one side with decent intelligent politicians as a rule, but utterly hobbled by insane medieval factionalism; the other a bunch of complete drongos, loudmouths and third-raters, but generally unified.

    Who will prevail? Sadly, that remains a serious question at most elections.

  32. Boerwar

    [Fran

    BW

    My main point was that if you are going to argue by way of comparing situations you should do a fair comparison. All you do here is to reiterate your original position.

    My comparison drew upon the most salient considerations.

    (b) Did MH17 fire 1,000 plus rockets at whoever happened to be under the rockets?

    If you are doing comparative analysis then you cannot ignore that MH17 was a threat to no-one, whereas HAMAS is firing thousands of rockets at Israeli civilans.

    I repeat: if you are going to do comparative analysis then you have to take all the relevant issues from BOTH incidents – not cherry pick the items that suit your view.

    That’s not relevant here. Firstly, the rocket fire from Hamas is a response to being occupied and regularly brutalised. The missiles cause very few casualties and very little damage, especially since the Iron Dome defence system has been in place.

    But in any event, the MH17 atrocity was a one-off atrocity that may well be the result of an act of criminal stupidity and which few would have predicted. Israel bombing Gaza is something one expects on any given day. In between that time, most of what Israel does to the people in the occupied territories gets scant if any reporting here. It has taken deaths in the hundreds to get above the typical levels of interest, and now this aircraft downing has once again diverted attention onto something of apparently greater interest to westerners at a time when the Israelis are escalating their assault.

    And yet, unlike MH17, where there’s very little that western attention can do to achieve an end to the suffering of the bereaved, the west might, if it wanted, bring an end to the Israel-Palestine conflict by simply isolating Israel until such time as it chose to negotiate a viable agreement with the Palestinians.]

    I agree that there is little correspondence between MH17 and Gaza. Yet you chose to compare the responses to them, carefully selecting as ‘salient’ the elements that suit your purpose.

    In looking at the two incidents you simply cannot erase as ‘non-salient’ that the MH17 passengers were not firing over a thousand missiles at anybody. Hamas was, and is. You might be able to justify Hamas firing missiles off in the general direction of Israeli towns but that is a separate matter. You might also be able to argue that Israel is evil in respect to Gaza but that is another matter as well.

    As for identifying who is responding to whom in any particular iteration of violence in Israel, Gaza or the middle east in general, and trying to derive an ethical stand therefrom, good luck with that.

    As for your other discussion: yes there is an assymetry of power between Hamas and Israel and between Hamas and, say, Gazan christians and, say, ISIS and Mosul Christians.

    Assymetrical power, whether of strength or weakness, ought to bring with it certain ethical considerations.

    It has long intrigued me about myself that I have more or less automatically ascribed evil to the stronger party and good to the weaker party. I suppose that the assumption is that the stronger party has more choices. With respect to the middle east in particular, I am no longer so certain about this.

    IMHO, it would be reasonable to say that the stronger sides in the middle east to some greater or lesser extent abuse this strength. Examples are: Israel v Palestinians, Hamas v Gazan Christians, ISIS v Mosul Christians or with Syrian rebels versus Syrian christians, Sunnis with Shiites when Sunnis are ascendant, and vice versa when Shia are ascendant.

    The general rule in the Middle East appears to be that if you have disproportionately strong power you abuse it to a greater or lesser extent. This principle, arguably, applies to ethnicity, nation, sect, gender, and, man and master.

    OTOH, if you have weak assymetrical power you abuse that as well – by suicide bombing, firing rockets off at random, murdering those who don’t follow your program, your sect or your politics, using your kids and your youths to throw rocks at policepersons, and so on and so forth.

    ‘Let he is without sin cast the first stone’ seems to cover most of happens in the middle east. If strictly applied, ME stone throwing would stop entirely.

  33. Centre

    No pollies on Q&A?

  34. Martin B

    [one side with decent intelligent politicians as a rule]

    Of course they generally guarantee a quota of troglodyte nongs lest they appear too unbalanced.

  35. Rossmore

    What a strange world …

    3,000 Africans in boats escorted to safety in Italy by the Italian Navy.

    Today, Scott Morrison has granted a permanent visa to a refugee who arrived by boat, despite fighting the boy’s case in the High Court and signalling he would not be swayed when the court found against him.

  36. Boerwar

    BTW, does anyone know why Psephos no longer posts here?

  37. pedant

    bemused @ 593: Good question. On the face of it s. 64 of the Queensland Electoral Act 1992 ties the right to enrol to the possession of a similar right for federal elections, and there, you are disqualified if serving a gaol sentence of three years or more.

  38. bemused

    slothy@597

    bemused @ 512


    I call for the full implementation of the Balfour Declaration as a starting point.


    it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine


    That is a nonsense, a fig leaf to hide the true intention. How do you plant tens of thousands on people on someone elses land without infringing the locals’ civil rights?

    What right did the British government have to even announce a policy for an area over which it had no control, and which is could not have made under international law even if it had been the mandate power.

    If you want that implemented then all the Jews will have to leave, or pile onto the relatively little land that was owned by Jews at the time, plus allow all the Palestinian refugees to return home. Good luck with that.

    Yes, you seem to get the point.

    An alternate solution is to commence negotiations in good faith to restore some reasonable position to the Palestinians that is consistent as far as possible with what was provided in that declaration.

  39. ShowsOn

    Is it possible to hold someone on the “low seas”?

  40. kezza2

    Earlier today some bright spark decided to equate Abbott with Ghandi.

    Well, funnily enough that person was correct.

    Ghandi was a misogynist of the first order.

    And, unfortunately, for all his peace-lovin’ resistant romantic bullshit, he enshrined in the Indian psyche a deep-seated hatred of women.

    Ghandi said women were responsible for men’s inability to control themselves.

    Forget Islamic stupidity. Hinduism is right up there with shaming women and excusing murder.

    No pink or blue there. Just a fucked up bloke who practised one thing and preached another.

  41. zoomster

    kezza

    one day you’re all ‘men are inherently bad because they’re men’ and ‘if women ruled the world, things would be different’ — the next you’re disputing whether gender differences exist.

    All I can say is that there is nothing in my neice’s upbringing which can account for her extreme femininity. It puzzles the whole family…but we accept that that’s who she is, and don’t chase after her with sets of overalls and offers to take her rock climbing..

  42. zoomster

    Boer

    I don’t think it’s a case of ‘no longer posts here’ – my impression is that he’s travelling.

  43. Diogenes

    BW

    [BTW, does anyone know why Psephos no longer posts here?]

    I think he’s still looking for a job.

  44. boomy1

    @606
    Depends on how much latitude they are given.

  45. bemused

    zoomster@608

    kezza

    one day you’re all ‘men are inherently bad because they’re men’ and ‘if women ruled the world, things would be different’ — the next you’re disputing whether gender differences exist.

    All I can say is that there is nothing in my neice’s upbringing which can account for her extreme femininity. It puzzles the whole family…but we accept that that’s who she is, and don’t chase after her with sets of overalls and offers to take her rock climbing..

    My grand-daughter is very ‘girly’ in many respects, if I can use that expression, but she is also quite physical and does stuff like climb trees and is far more advanced at swimming than I was at her age.

    The two aspects seem to co-exist comfortably within her.

  46. Rossmore

    Some great tweets on QnA tonight. For the first time in her life Amanda Vanstone probably feels out of her depth.

  47. kezza2

    zoomster
    [one day you’re all ‘men are inherently bad because they’re men’ and ‘if women ruled the world, things would be different’]

    No, I’m not. That’s what you assign to me.
    And you take such succour in defending men, to suck up to them, despite what I have to say about my own sons.

    It’s women like you who give me the shits, quite frankly.

    Oooooh, I’m on your side, men. Don’t listen to her. Don’t even start to think about how history has treated women.

    You don’t even want to address the inequality because you have sons. And you want them to do well. I want my boys to do well too, but not at the expense of women.

    Sorry, buddy, I’m not giving up years of fighting for equality just because I gave birth to sons.

  48. pedant

    Rossmore @ 613: Not much danger for Ms Vanstone even if she gets out of her depth: fat floats on water.

  49. billie

    Q&A is great tonight

  50. Rossmore

    21 July 2014 will go down as a significant day in Oz State and Federal LNP history … The day when Newman and Morrison both flinched and backed down. The teflon has cracked.

  51. zoomster

    kezza

    That description of me is so wrong it’s laughable.

    I dare say I’ve done far more to address inequality in my lifetime than you have.

    True feminism is recognising that gender stereotyping works both ways – and the old patriachal structures were just as restrictive for men as they were for women.

    You can’t get past your own issues – fair enough, you had the rough end of several pineapples.

    But to decide that one sex is the problem isn’t the answer to anything.

  52. kezza2

    Talk about laugh in my family.

    All the girls kept giving birth to sons. Which meant, of course, that their were lots of family names being carried on, but not ours

    And all the sons’ wives kept giving birth to daughters. Which meant, of course, no family surname from my father.

    Out of eight children, of which there were four boys, there is one son only per male child. The rest are girls.

    And there are 36 grandkids.

    Look out, my nieces might be after your sons.

  53. zoidlord

    @Rossmore/617

    It’s a pitty our media hasn’t gone nuts regarding “massive backflip”.

  54. Rossmore

    Zoid 620 … Oh I expect the media will get there eventually. The Australian public have.

  55. kezza2

    zoomster
    [I dare say I’ve done far more to address inequality in my lifetime than you have.]

    I dare say you have done a lot, but I doubt you have done more than me.

    I live it. You pretend.

    I only need to log in here each day to see you blasting the Greens, for instance, to know that you’re too one-eyed to ever give ground to others.

    But that’s you.

  56. victoria

    Latest mail on RC into union corruption.

    There is an attempt to link bikies, drugs and prostitution racket at the Desal plant project here in Victoria to the CFMEU. The witness list for hearing includes union organisers at the time who will be called to give evidence.
    The Commission may get more than they bargained for. Witnesses to be called will be telling the Commission that the management brought in bikies to act as security and spy on workers doing their job. The company who run the project made an absolute motza and is hoping their dirty secrets will stay covered.

  57. zoomster

    Er, what?

    Blasting the Greens means I’m not a feminist?

    Ah well, at least I can think in a straight line….

  58. zoomster

    Actually, I blast the Labor party occasionally, too.

    My problem with the Greens is that the Greens are too one eyed to accept criticism.

  59. slothy

    bemused @ 605

    [An alternate solution is to commence negotiations in good faith to restore some reasonable position to the Palestinians that is consistent as far as possible with what was provided in that declaration.]

    I can’t see a one state solution ever getting off the ground. There is just too much bad/spilled blood, too much distrust which goes back to the early 1920s, so nearly 100 years.

    I think the only answer is a genuine state for the Palestinians, not the faux crap Israel has tried to impose during past peace efforts and an Israel with a much smaller, non nuke, military to deter it from throwing its weight around. Ideally, for a few decades without either having any military capability with each state’s security guaranteed by others, however, that might be too hard a sell.

    The thing that really shits me about this mess is that if the Jews had come in peace with an offer to work with the Palestinians to build a great country that would almost certainly have succeeded. But the Zionists never intended to have anything other than a Jewish state. Plans to accomplish just that were first made in the 1920s, so can’t be excused as a reaction to the Holocaust. All such a huge waste.

  60. jules

    Wow – Amanda Vanstone is fat … who’d have known based on all those stupid and offensive things she said and did in government and since.

  61. zoomster

    kezza

    [I live it. You pretend.]

    Ah. So I dare say women come up to you in the street and tell you how they’ve been inspired by your example?

    And that you changed the national lending policies of a major bank?

    And that you mentor several women? (And was recently invited to mentor Koori women interested in entering public life?)

    I haven’t done badly, really, for someone whose whole life is (apparently) a lie.

  62. slothy

    victoria @ 623

    [The Commission may get more than they bargained for.]

    Whoever said governments should never hold an enquiry they didn’t already know the answers to was one smart cookie. Fortunately, the liberals aren’t.

  63. victoria

    Slothy

    The last RC, witness statements were omitted by the Commission as they saw fit. May well do that again. They dont call it a Kangaroo Court for nothing.

  64. kezza2

    [zoomster
    Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 10:34 pm | PERMALINK
    Er, what?

    Blasting the Greens means I’m not a feminist?]

    Er, no.

    I didn’t think you’d get my point. And here you go again, faking surprise. And pretending I’ve made an assertion that I haven’t.

    What I meant was that you’re so used to deflecting anything that could possibly be construed as negative, as a politician, you readily put your perspective back on the person.

    Politics 101.

    But I’m not a politician. I don’t have to worry about how people perceive me. I can say exactly what I think about any given situation. But you have to construe, in case you need a vote.

    That’s the difference between you and me.

    So, when I mentioned the Greens, which I knew would get up your nose because since the last election you have blamed the Greens for all Labors woes, you can’t leave it behind.

    You want someone to blame for Labor’s loss. And, to you, it’s the Greens. It was Labor who lost.

    And I worked for Labor. Bloody hard. In an electorate much like yours. Although Labor had won here before.

    And much as I would have liked you, or another Labor candidate, to win in Indi, I’m not sure I like your continued sour grapes over McGowan’s win.

    So, yes, I’m a feminist. I didn’t learn my feminism from a book, or from some esoteric theory. My feminism is derived from the what I learned, and the way I was treated in my family. If you hadn’t already guessed.

    But I don’t give up despite the shit thrown at me by the likes of Abbott, and I’m certainly not going to give up because of you.

    I’m sorry if you were offended about my reaction to the way you treated your neighbour recently. But that just tells me you’re not really a country person, and your recent postings tell me you’re not really as flexible as you pretend.

  65. Fran Barlow

    Excellent piece from John Oliver on US prison system:

    http://youtu.be/_Pz3syET3DY

    Devastating really …

  66. kezza2

    [zoomster
    Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 10:43 pm | PERMALINK
    kezza

    I live it. You pretend.

    Ah. So I dare say women come up to you in the street and tell you how they’ve been inspired by your example?

    And that you changed the national lending policies of a major bank?

    And that you mentor several women? (And was recently invited to mentor Koori women interested in entering public life?)

    I haven’t done badly, really, for someone whose whole life is (apparently) a lie.]

    Geez you’re terrific. You’re a star. You’re a legend.

    My mother was like you. Except she didn’t have to tell people, she lived it. And was recognised for her contribution.

    No, I haven’t done what you or my mother did. But I have lived my mother’s example. And I feel good about that.

    Now, if only I had the gonads to beat my own drum.

  67. Rossmore

    Kezza2 Self righteousness is thy name. Is humility and balance in your dictionary? Just askin…

  68. zoomster

    kezza

    My continued sour grapes? Ah, as evinced by the messages I’ve received from McGowan thanking me for defending her in the local media….

    And I have a reputation for speaking the truth as I see it, regardless of whether or not it losses me votes – or upsets people. I’ve never found that telling it like it is hurts in the long run, so I’ve never hesitated to do it. (And surely the whole saga with my neighbour shows that I don’t back down because I’m worried someone might be upset with me??)

    As I said at the time, your reaction to the way I treated my neighbour (er, not the way he treated me?) was more about the issues you seem to have with me rather than the actual events. (Particularly as he is the city person in the scenario…)

    But anyway, as not-a-country-person, I’m off to bed, knackered after spending most of the day trying to break a pony to lead….

  69. zoomster

    Sorry about all that, William…I’m orf now.

  70. Rossmore

    Zoomster … you’re doing a great job in Indi. Hang in there…

  71. kezza2

    [William Bowe
    Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 11:02 pm | PERMALINK
    Shut up, Kezza.]

    Charming, as usual.

    [Rossmore
    Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 11:03 pm | PERMALINK
    Kezza2 Self righteousness is thy name. Is humility and balance in your dictionary? Just askin…]

    Probably just saying what you’d like to say.

    But then again, I suspect every time you comment, someone’s not out after your tail.

    I hope you realise that zoomster is the one who attacks my comments, not the other way round.

    Is it a sin to defend myself?

  72. bemused

    William Bowe@634

    Shut up, Kezza.

    I was just about to comment on how much I was enjoying the biffo between kezza2 and zoomster. 🙁

  73. kezza2

    zoomster
    [My continued sour grapes? Ah, as evinced by the messages I’ve received from McGowan thanking me for defending her in the local media….]

    Irrelevant.

    [And I have a reputation for speaking the truth as I see it, regardless of whether or not it losses me votes – or upsets people. I’ve never found that telling it like it is hurts in the long run, so I’ve never hesitated to do it.]

    Good for you.

    [(And surely the whole saga with my neighbour shows that I don’t back down because I’m worried someone might be upset with me??)]

    Yeah. But it was pretty stupid.

    [As I said at the time, your reaction to the way I treated my neighbour (er, not the way he treated me?) was more about the issues you seem to have with me rather than the actual events. (Particularly as he is the city person in the scenario…)]

    Absolutely nothing to do with you, but a lot to do with how country neighbours treat each other.

    Country people have to live, and let live, with each other. You have to depend on each other.

    You don’t get the cops out for anything other than the most serious offence.

    You obviously felt comfortable getting up in the middle of the night to go to your neighbour’s place.

    You discovered he was pissed (not angry, drunk). And he wasn’t making much sense. He’d crashed his car. You checked your horses. You knew he’d gotten it wrong.

    Yet you still rang the police. Why?

    [But anyway, as not-a-country-person, I’m off to bed, knackered after spending most of the day trying to break a pony to lead….]

    Yep. Well, so you have horsey credentials. So what. Doesn’t prove you understand country folk.

  74. Rossmore

    Bemused 641. It’s not biffo. It’s rank idiocy.

  75. peppy7

    Breaking News:

    News
    World news
    Israel

    Gaza hospital hit in fatal Israeli attack

    Yet another glorious victory for the West. Maybe they’ll shell some kindergartens next.

  76. William Bowe

    Kezza, the ethics you espouse are not those of the “country”, but of the criminal underclass. It is gravely insulting to country people to assert that you are in some sense their authentic voice.

  77. victoria

    Russian Defense Ministry says did not detect any missiles launched near #MH17 flight path, asks U.S. to share satellite images

    Russia did not deliver any SA-11 buk missile systems to separatists in eastern Ukraine: Russian Defence Ministry #MH17

  78. victoria

    Above tweets are from Reuters

    Anyhoo night all

  79. jules

    fran @ 632 – that was pretty good.

    I can’t believe sesame street has to explain prison to kids … that is so wrong.

    If you look at A map of incarceration rates and One of slave states at the time of the civil war you might notice something interesting.

  80. bemused

    Rossmore@643

    Bemused 641. It’s not biffo. It’s rank idiocy.

    Lighten up Rossmore or I will assault you with some errant apostrophes. 😛

  81. Rossmore

    Night all… remember this date, 21 July 2014, the day the Tory LNP hegemony in Oz first cracked.

  82. kezza2

    [William Bowe
    Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 11:28 pm | PERMALINK
    Kezza, the ethics you espouse are not those of the “country”, but of the criminal underclass.]

    Absolute piffle.

    People who live in the country, far away from the safe suburban hands of the law, have to resolve problems (legal) all the time.

    SNIP: What follows is yet more of Kezza’s deranged observations about Zoomster’s personal failings, which we would have heard quite enough of by now already even if she had any right to be making them, which she doesn’t.

  83. davidwh

    Russia didn’t detect any missile launch? Were they looking the other way?

    That was an attempt at being less subtle William 🙂

  84. kezza2

    [SNIP: What follows is yet more of Kezza’s deranged observations about Zoomster’s personal failings, which we would have heard quite enough of by now already even if she had any right to be making them, which she doesn’t.]

    No, they’re not deranged, whether you like it or not, they’re just examples of what really happens in country life.

    You have to make decisions, on the spot. And the only times cops are called are when they’re matters of life and death.

    You might not like it, but that’s what happens.

    You only have to look at criminal intent in the suburbs really. Just take your WA Minister Buswell, for example.

    What happened to him? That wasn’t country.

  85. bemused

    kezza2@651


    William Bowe

    SNIP: What follows is yet more of Kezza’s deranged observations about Zoomster’s personal failings, which we would have heard quite enough of by now already even if she had any right to be making them, which she doesn’t.

    Awww go on William, share them with us. 👿

  86. William Bowe

    [You only have to look at criminal intent in the suburbs really. Just take your WA Minister Buswell, for example.

    What happened to him? That wasn’t country.]

    What?

  87. davidwh

    Hey comrade did you see Newman is a new caring and sharing premier as from today. The meeting with the silks should be interesting. I wonder if Carmody will attend.

  88. zoidlord

    @David,

    I not sure if that’s a joke or a joke 🙂

  89. davidwh

    Zoidlord even the most loyal Libs were laughing today. It was so artificial 🙂

  90. WeWantPaul

    in qld has Carmody been sworn in and if so isn’t he entitled to at least stay a supreme crt justice till retirement age? or can politicians remove judges in Qld?

  91. kezza2

    William
    [What?]

    Don’t talk about criminal underclass when suburban folk get off the most disgraceful behaviour.

    The havoc Buswell left in his wake; the cops did nothing.
    Until there was outrage by the press.

    And you wonder why country folk take some things into their own hands, when the ‘crime’ committed was next to nothing in the realm of things. That’s not criminal underclass. That’s commonsense.

  92. davidwh

    WWP yes Carmody has been sworn in and yes he is there until he resigns or retires.

  93. pedant

    davidwh @ 663: or has the misfortune to catch a horrible disease.

  94. kezza2

    I’ll give you another example.

    When I moved to Motown, I hadn’t lived in suburbia for about 30 years.

    Every Friday night the bloke next door had a party. The music was loudish, not too bad. Even when I went to bed, it was only the bass thump that was really annoying, still I got used to it.

    The people over the road (street) didn’t. And they would call the cops. And then, because of the cars parked in the street, inevitably they’d knock on my door.

    That was more annoying than the party. Having to get up to answer the door.

    That lasted for a whole year. Every damn Friday night. What a waste of time, for the cops.

    Why didn’t the people across the street walk across and ask for the music to be turned down, instead of calling the cops.

    Baffled me.

    But it caused so much angst between those neighbours. And the rest of us in proximity. For no reason. I refused to take sides in what was, to me, the most trivial matter.

    Complete waste of everyone’s time. And money. And effort.
    When a few words would have sufficed.

  95. ShowsOn

    [No, they’re not deranged, whether you like it or not, they’re just examples of what really happens in country life.

    You have to make decisions, on the spot. And the only times cops are called are when they’re matters of life and death.

    You might not like it, but that’s what happens.

    You only have to look at criminal intent in the suburbs really. Just take your WA Minister Buswell, for example.

    What happened to him? That wasn’t country.]
    I’ve seen this movie. It is called Shame and it stars Deborra-Lee Furness (AKA Hugh Jackman’s wife):
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093952/

  96. kezza2

    ShowsOn
    [I’ve seen this movie. It is called Shame and it stars Deborra-Lee Furness (AKA Hugh Jackman’s wife)]

    Not quite like that!

  97. imacca

    [ Complete waste of everyone’s time. And money. And effort.
    When a few words would have sufficed. ]

    Actually Kezza, having been in that situation, a few words very often dont suffice when bozo with the thumping bass at all hours simply tells you to piss off and put up with it.

    Better than the police though is a diary, the council ranger, and the rental agent.

  98. William Bowe

    ETU-commissioned ReachTEL poll of Queensland Treasurer Tim Nicholls’ seat of Clayfield shows 13.6% swing to Labor, but he still leads 57-43.

    http://www.etu.org.au/system/files/Media%20release%20Clayfield%20polling%20July%202014_0.pdf

  99. kezza2

    imacca

    Weaned calves are worse!

    Seriously, the guy next door asked me one day what I thought about it.

    And I told him how irritating it was to get up to the police every Friday night, well actually in the early hours of Saturday morning.

    And that the neighbours across the street must be getting the full blast.

    A few weeks after that the parties ceased. Full stop.

  100. Roger Miller

    Shows On
    I used to work with the brother of one of the writers of that film.

  101. Raaraa

    In the unlikely event that Newman would heed Palmer’s advise in calling an election now, I wonder if Labor is more likely to ask voters to “just vote 1” or swap preferences with the PUP? It is a bit of a double-edged sword.

  102. cud chewer

    weaned calves.. sigh.. sad

  103. Otiose

    #Russia, #Putin #MH17, Fishing by @rowe_david © http://bit.ly/1lmrZCi http://bit.ly/1lmrZCi

  104. guytaur

    Good Morning.

    All credit to Team Australia on getting unanimous support on UN Resolution for access for investigators to have access to the MH17 crash site.

    I know it seems like Doh! it should have been supported as a matter of course. However many such things have failed. So I am pleased this has passed and is a good contribution from Abbott’s government on the world stage.

  105. poroti

    guytaur

    It seems like a “Doh” because it wass. The only country that would possibly veto it was Russia and they agreed to it a couple of days ago.

  106. guytaur

    Oh and congratulations to Team Labor starting with Kevin Rudd continuing under Julia Gillard for getting Australia onto the Security Council.

  107. poroti

    What Obamacare means for poor Americans.

    [Obamacare in Kentucky: The luxury of seeing a doctor

    She owns her home but works two jobs as a dental assistant to make ends meet. She did not vote for President Obama.

    Adams has had no health insurance since her divorce 30 years ago. A recent heart operation left her with a $67,000 bill
    I used to say, if I get hurt just let me be killed because I can’t afford to pay any more hospital bills,” she says.But Adams no longer has to worry

    …………The 26-year-old filling station cashier has just been told her enrolment in Obamacare is complete.

    Now she can have her first routine doctor’s appointment for seven years.
    I’ll go to the hospital only in an emergency,” says Sizemore, who is still paying off the $10,000 bill for removing her appendix two years ago. ]

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28337867

  108. sprocket_

    [@JevenaC: Polled by EMRS on behalf of a ‘client’ wanting to know views on bikie laws & judiciary +local issues #UNeedAPoll ]

  109. ruawake

    Chortle

    [Mr Strong Choices also conceded that the relationship between his very strong government and the very stupid legal fraternity was not as good as it could be. Bearing this in mind he promised the people of Stafford, and the people of Queensland who he was beginning to worry might be every bit as stupid as the people of Stafford, that he and Attorney-General Bleijie-Petersen would be meeting with all the stupid judges and lawyers who weren’t very happy with them to explain how nothing would change.
    “We acknowledge that there has been some bad blood in recent times,” said Mr Strong Choices, “and I will therefore seek a meeting with the heads of the stupid legal profession, to sit down and really mend some fences, to actually sit down and very much recognise that we must work together and they must do as they’re told. I don’t think they’ve understood that so far and I take responsibility for their lack of understanding. I recognise now that nobody understands Mr Strong Choices because most of you just aren’t smart enough.”
    The one thing Mr Strong Choices said would not be changing were the strong choices he had made about selling off assets and sacking thousands of people and undoing the Fitzgerald reforms. “The people of Stafford have shown themselves to be a bit dense, I admit that,” said Mr Strong Choices. “But that’s their problem, not mine. The only choices are strong choices and I’ll be making them no matter how stupid they are.”
    The Premier’s office later released a clarification. The Premier meant the people were stupid, not the choices. The choices were awesome and he just didn’t know how people couldn’t see that. Stupid people.]

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/blogs/blunt-instrument/mr-strong-choices-still-thinks-youre-stupid-20140722-3cbuc.html#ixzz388gsH0xm

  110. guytaur

    @danielhurstbne: Childcare inquiry report suggests diverting some #PPL funding into childcare as it’d have greater workforce benefit http://t.co/IDbDvRLEtN

  111. guytaur

    @MikeKellyofEM: Clean Energy Finance Corporation plans expansion after dodging axe http://t.co/HZ2EWCJVIY

  112. BK

    Good morning Dawn Patrollers.

    Morrison’s bluff and bluster called out.
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/scott-morrison-backflips-and-grants-visa-to-boy-who-arrived-by-boat-20140721-3cbju.html
    More bad stuff for Morrison to “handle”.
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/manus-violence-eyewitnesses-claim-australians-forced-them-to-recant-20140721-3cbjt.html
    I think it needs a bit more than a ceasefire.
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/gaza-death-toll-tops-500-as-us-steps-up-efforts-to-bring-about-ceasefire-20140722-zvhhe.html
    The CEFC spreads its wings after getting the Senate reprieve.
    http://www.smh.com.au/business/clean-energy-finance-corporation-plans-expansion-after-dodging-axe-20140721-zvdhg.html
    A measly $900 and vindictive political action brings Slipper down.
    http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/peter-slipper-faces-act-court-to-defend-cabcharge-fraud-charges-20140721-zv0te.html
    Greg Jericho – keeping the mining tax won’t kill investment.
    http://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2014/jul/21/keeping-mining-tax-wont-kill-investment
    Peter Wicks on Kathy Jackson playing the mental health card.
    http://www.independentaustralia.net/life/life-display/kathy-jackson-and-the-jacksonville-defence,6694
    Uni serfs go mediaeval to fight higher education reform.
    https://newmatilda.com/2014/07/21/behold-uni-serfs-go-medieval-block-higher-ed-reforms
    Peter Martin – why planes and financial systems crash.
    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/mh17-why-planes-and-financial-systems-crash-20140721-zv80l.html
    The Productivity Commission is questioning the focus of Abbott’s PPL scheme.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/productivity-commission-sceptical-of-value-of-abbotts-parental-leave-scheme

  113. sceptic

    Another avenue for ICAC into Liberal dark side

    Michale Photios & Benny Ellias ….

    His involvement, he said at the time, was “unimpeachable”.(M Photios)

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/michael-photios-the-tigers-and-the-wrath-of-angry-client-benny-elias-20140721-zuxpf.html

  114. zoomster

    Given that the accounts of kezza’s childhood do seem to be right out of ‘Shame’, I would suggest that a bit more of a police presence might have been beneficial.

    Sorting it out themselves didn’t seem to have terrific results.

  115. BK

    And from the Land of the Free –

    There’s no doubt where religious freak Mike Huckabee stands on the Palestine conflict.
    http://crooksandliars.com/2014/07/huckabee-refers-palestinians-vicious-mad
    Repug civil war in Mississippi.
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/21/1315521/-Republican-civil-war-in-Mississippi-goes-national
    Paul Krugman. It seems imaginary crises are a conservative thing.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/opinion/Paul-Krugman-An-Imaginary-Budget-and-Debt-Crisis.html?

  116. sceptic

    Where was Chris Uhlmann’s fine impartial investigative journalist skills while giving Kathy Jackson a free kick in the HSU scandal.

    Maybe he can do a program on it

  117. Sir Mad Cyril

    Black boxes have been handed over to the Malaysians.

    [
    Shaun Walker @shaunwalker7 · 7m
    Black boxes will be passed to Malaysians. Right now. Surreal scenes at 1.10am on the 11th floor of this occupied government building
    ]

    https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7

  118. victoria

    Morning all

    Bernard keane reminds us

    [“…Labor’s extravagant UN Security Council bid, which has distracted from core foreign policy interests.” Julie Bishop, 2010]

  119. victoria

    And this

    [“There are vastly higher priorities for Australia right now than pursuing a seat on the security council.” Tony Abbott, 2010]

  120. Darn

    Neil Mitchell doing his share of turd polishing this morning – claiming in his promo that it is clear now Australia is leading the world on the MH17 matter. I won’t be listening.

  121. victoria

    Sir Mad Cyril

    As per twitter feed you linked

    [Wow Borodai has wheeled the Malaysians out, is now lecturing about how Kiev is responsible for downing MH17, with Malaysians standing silent]

  122. victoria

    Darn

    Looks like Malaysia has brokered deal, not Australia

    [KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Prime Minister Najib Razak’s announcement that his government had reached an agreement with pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, for the transfer of the bodies and so-called black boxes from Flight 17 to Malaysian representatives there, apparently achieved what pressure from far more powerful nations had failed to accomplish.]

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/asia/malaysia-premier-brokers-deal-to-recover-black-boxes.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=a-lede-package-region&region=lede-package&WT.nav=lede-package&_r=0

  123. zoidlord

    ScienceDaily @ScienceDaily · Jul 14

    Australia drying caused by greenhouse gases, study shows – A new high-resolution climate model has been developed … http://ow.ly/2K6vuj

  124. Darn

    [ictoria
    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 8:37 am | PERMALINK
    Darn

    Looks like Malaysia has brokered deal, not Australia

    KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Prime Minister Najib Razak’s announcement that his government had reached an agreement with pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, for the transfer of the bodies and so-called black boxes from Flight 17 to Malaysian representatives there, apparently achieved what pressure from far more powerful nations had failed to accomplish.]

    Vic

    How unsporting of those Malaysians to try and steal some of the glory from our own super hero (in his own mind) PM.

  125. poroti

    victoria

    This from another NYT article on the agreement gives a hint as to why the Malaysians were successful.

    [Six Malaysian representatives were to oversee the transfer of the bodies in Kharkiv to the custody of the Netherlands.The so-called black boxes were to be handed over in Donetsk as well.

    If the separatists honor the agreement, it would be a diplomatic success for Mr. Najib, whose government has been reluctant to cast blame for the airline disaster]

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/putin-calls-for-talks-in-ukraine-and-a-robust-crash-investigation.html

  126. BK

    poroti
    Ah. So THAT’S how it’s done.

  127. Sir Mad Cyril

    [
    Wow Borodai has wheeled the Malaysians out, is now lecturing about how Kiev is responsible for downing MH17, with Malaysians standing silent
    ]

    vic

    Classy stuff from the Separatists.

  128. WeWantPaul

    [Classy stuff from the Separatists.]

    Hmmm but does that mean effectively malaysia with the black boxes is aligned with Moscow. If so official conclusion will be Kiev responsible. Wow if so.

  129. victoria

    zoomster

    Good stuff. 🙂

  130. BSA Bob

    victoria
    Thanks for the quotes telling us of Labor’s utter stupidity & wastefulness in pursuing that silly seat on the Security Council. It’d be nice to see a serious researcher compile a list of those comments & there’d be plenty of them

  131. victoria

    WWP

    I dont think it means that at all. Malaysian authorities are seeking outcomes. Being lectured by pro Russian separatists does not infer their innocence.

  132. Sir Mad Cyril

    WeWantPaul

    I think the Malaysians just wanted to get the Black Boxes and get hell out of there. There was a Dutch representative there as well apparently.

    [
    Christopher Miller @ChristopherJM · 47m
    Malaysia delegation says he isn’t interests in blame game, but just wants black boxes because they “are property of Malaysia.”
    ]

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM

  133. victoria

    Oops meant to add

    Thanks to Bernard Keane for tweeting them

  134. poroti

    WWP

    [does that mean effectively malaysia with the black boxes is aligned with Moscow.]

    How on earth could it be interpreted that way ?

  135. victoria

    Another good one from Bernard Keane

    [Strange the amazing powers of persuasion the Tele attributes to Abbott re Putin somehow fail to work on crossbench senators.]

  136. citizen

    The Malaysians gave demonstrated the power of quiet diplomacy in achieving results.

    Almost certainly Malaysia will involve the US (and probably the EU) in downloading the contents of the black box flight recorders. They have the technical expertise that most countries do not.

    Equally important is examination of the plane debris on the ground to determine what happened and to search for conclusive evidence of an explosion.

    The agreement between Malaysia and the rebels to bring the human remains to Holland is also a vital step forward.

  137. victoria

    [Abbott, 2012, on the Security Council bid: “Our Prime Minister shouldn’t be swanning around in New York talking to Africans” #Auspol #MH17]

  138. victoria

    But according to the Tele, Abbott is “Putin on the pressure”. What a frickin joke

    [@markjs1 @TheKouk So while Australia was busy being all hairy chested, the Malaysians & Dutch were quietly going about getting things done?]

  139. psyclaw

    Sceptic #687

    No! No! No!

    Michael Photios could not have done anything wrong!

    His Liberal bankrupted business mate Mr Daniel says so.

    “Michael wouldn’t use a friendship we had in the past to advance a business interest with me. No way … He’s more professional than that,” he said.”

    So there you have it. Case over. Liberals are squeaky clean.

  140. WeWantPaul

    [How on earth could it be interpreted that way ?]

    Apparently it can’t – I couldn’t remember where Malaysia aligned Russia – China – US wise.

  141. citizen

    The current CNN story on MH17 details the Malaysian and Dutch initiatives in achieving progress with the rebels. It also mentions the UN Security Council resolution. However the story makes no mention of the Abbott and JBishop chest thumping.

    [The U.N. Security Council adopted a resolution Monday demanding full access to the crash site and condemning the downing of the plane. The resolution won unanimous approval from the 15-member council, which includes Russia. It did not specify who was responsible for the crash.

    Despite the stern tone of the Ukrainian and U.S. leaders, the spokesman for a team of European monitors at the site said conditions have improved since a chilly reception immediately after Flight 17 fell from the sky.

    “Today we have three Dutch forensics experts with us, and they’re getting pretty much unfettered access,” Michael Bociurkiw, the spokesman for monitors from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, told CNN’s Chris Cuomo.

    Dutch forensic experts and a handful of Ukrainian aviation experts worked the scene Monday, Bociurkiw said separately in a briefing for reporters hosted by the Ukrainian Crisis Media Center.]

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

  142. poroti

    WeWantPaul

    China sent Malaysia a couple of Pandas in May so I suppose their relationship would be OK.

  143. guytaur

    Abbott has hit the high water mark of involvement in MH17

    Now the journalists will cover memorials for families and what other countries are doing.

    The political distraction part of the tragedy is over. Thus no political advantage for Abbott.

    As a consequence inevitably journalists will have to write articles about how bad it is that Abbott could not get his budget passed.

  144. guytaur

    @jason_om: Looks like #highcourt153 could drag on today. Defence was not filed by deadline last night @abcnews #asylum #auspol

  145. poroti

    After all the slagging off of locals a bit of praise.

    [The report from east Ukraine from Harriet Salem (@HarrietSalem) continues, with a Dutch expert saying that rebels and locals who helped recover bodies may not have been as callous as previously thought:

    Given the hot weather, the size of the crash site and the military operations going on in the vicinity, the operation was “very difficult” and he was impressed with the efforts of local emergency workers and volunteers, who have spent three days sifting corpses and body parts from the crash site. He added though, that the area needed a “full, forensic sweep” by proper experts.]
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/mh17-disaster-ukraine-obama-live-updates

  146. kakuru

    psyclaw:

    [“Michael wouldn’t use a friendship we had in the past to advance a business interest with me. No way … He’s more professional than that,” he said.” ]

    Well, you can take that to the bank!

  147. jules

    Malaysia is a member of the Non Aligned Movement (anyone remember that?) This is the Wikipedia page on Malaysia’s foreign relations.

  148. poroti

    jules

    Well remembered. I’d forgotten they even existed.

  149. Raaraa

    680 poroti

    [What Obamacare means for poor Americans.]

    The term Obamacare is originally termed by its opponents as attributing something that they believe will fail to Obama. Eventually both supporters and opponents used the term so much so that it is accepted by many of supporters into normal use. Kind of like our “carbon tax”.

    Source

    If the act doesn’t get butchered and sticks around, I guess Obama will have his name stamped on it by pure luck as the creator of it.

  150. psyclaw

    Kakura

    I suspect the money is already in the bank…….. wife’s account, or family trust account!

  151. jules

    poroti – I had to look it up… but it seemed familiar. I knew they were in ASEAN and aligned with Islamic blocs and supported Palestine and suspected they might have been involved in something reasonably independent. But I haven’t heard the term “non aligned movement” since i wore a pink t shirt.

  152. Tricot

    To be fair, both Abbott and Bishop have carried out their respective roles as PM and FM adequately over the last few days.

    Much as one may dislike a workman say, it does mean with enough experience, they can kind of do their job.

    Meanwhile, the West Australian newspaper – among others in the conservative press – have used the disaster of the Malaysian flight as a chance for full scale attempts to rehabilitate Abbott in the eyes of the electorate.

    The editorial this morning verged on the effusive as it told us that once Abbott was free of the shackles of the Senate, poor opinion polls and the like, the true nature of Abbott’s leadership is there for all to see.

    He has been front and centre being everything from the little tough guy standing up to Putin to the caring leader of the nation acting as a shoulder to cry on for families of the victims.

    At the end of this peon of praise, the paper declares that Abbott is growing in the job and the country is in good hands.

    I don’t know what the general public thinks but if the Falklands war is anything to go by, and perhaps Anna Bligh in Queensland, a little bit of ‘statesmanship’ seems to go a long way in terms of popularity for a short period of time.

    What some see here as intemperate language by Abbott in this whole matter, others see as Abbott being a strong leader standing up to Putin and, according to Andrew Probyn in the West, saying what other Western leaders were just thinking and would like to say.

    As a reflection, it is amazing once one is in office and can strut the world’s stage, how much more important becomes the UN and the Security Council, while when in opposition, these can be written off as a bad focus.

    Then again the conservatives do hypocrisy better than most.

  153. poroti

    Raaraa

    So the “name of shame” dreamt up by the Repugs likely to became a name of fame for Obama. Wonderful irony.

  154. citizen

    It does seem that events are now overtaking the Abbott rhetoric on MH17. He has now moved on to ‘bringing the attackers to justice’.

    [PRIME Minister Tony Abbott says Australia will continue to do everything it can to bring the MH17 attackers to justice after the UN backed an Australian resolution demanding full access for investigators.]

    http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/australia-will-keep-pushing-on-mh17-pm/story-e6frfku9-1226996995766

    ‘Bringing the attackers to justice’ is a process that could occupy Abbott for years.

  155. victoria

    Remember this

    [“But the really important thing is that right now our Prime Minister is in New York spruiking for this Security Council bid. She should be in Jakarta, not in New York, because that is where Australia’s national interest is most at stake right now,” he told 2GB.
    “Rather than talking to African countries, trying to drum up the numbers to get us a temporary seat on the UN Security Council, she should be in Jakarta talking to President Yudhoyono about how we can co-operate better with the Indonesians to stop this flow which is putting our border protection hopelessly under the pump.”
    Mr Abbott said improving relationships with Indonesia should be a priority.]

    http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/focus-on-boats-not-un-abbott-tells-pm-20120924-26gfg.html

  156. victoria

    Looks like the fog is here to stay all day here in Melbourne town

  157. guytaur

    “@MWhitbourn: Morning #ICAC buffs. Darrell Hendry, the long-term business associate of ex UNE chancellor John Cassidy, is expected to give evidence today.”

  158. WeWantPaul

    [To be fair, both Abbott and Bishop have carried out their respective roles as PM and FM adequately over the last few days.
    ]

    I couldn’t disagree more. They have achieved nothing while the Dutch collected the bodies and the Malaysians collected the black boxes. Abbott has form as being delighted to try and earn political capital from tragedy and this is no different. I don’t see how anyone would give his political point scoring and foolish bullying anything other than contempt.

  159. guytaur

    “@COBrienBris: Will you change seats, @theqldpremier ? “No. I’ve been pre-selected Ashgrove. & I’m never answering that question again.” @abcnews #qldpol”

  160. Tricot

    And on more bread and butter issues, the guy who does my simple tax return mentioned to me yesterday, that one of the surprises he came across is the fact that from 2015 the claims for out-of-pocket medical expenses – up to a limit of 20% – will go.

    This was news to me.

    My guy expressed total frustration at the way the government is handling all this tax stuff as he is unsure whether to plan on the basis of existing legislation which is likely to go (if and when) or rely on what is to come.

    In any event, he suggested the days of keeping detailed records of medical, dental and chemist expenses associate with scripts, with a view to claiming the 20% will soon be over as there will be no kind of tax relief in any event.

  161. zoidlord

    UN Green Climate Fund $1 billion from Germany.

    Climate Council ‏@climatecouncil 3m

    ICYMI: Germany Pledges $1 Billion to UN Green Climate Fund http://bloom.bg/1lnHHNi

  162. Socrates

    Morning all. Impressive diplomatic achievement by Malaysia, but they probably only succeeded because Putin had been softened up by Abbott’s phone call and pressure. Putin was no doubt rattled by media images of Abbott in speedos, even more impressive than media images of a bare chested Putin.
    (I am practising for a possible future role as a Murdoch reporter! 🙂 )

  163. Raaraa

    716 WWP

    [Apparently it can’t – I couldn’t remember where Malaysia aligned Russia – China – US wise.]

    Malaysia was part of the Non-Aligned Movement back during the cold war.

    Malaysia as far as I know tries its best not to look like it’s part of the West, but neither do they want to associate completely with the former communist states.

    Malaysia has trade links with Cuba on researching Pharmaceutical trials along with other countries like Canada.

    Malaysia has trade links with China, with China top of its list in imports and exports (other than Singapore), however, part of their relationship is strained, together with many other ASEAN countries due to the Spratly Islands dispute.

    Malaysia has a deal with Russia with supplying Sukhoi fighter jets.

    More info

  164. Tricot

    WWP@735

    Fair enough, but I was trying to convey the domestic political impact and the general competence of Abbott and Bishop in just carrying out their expected role.

    I likened this role to that of a carpenter. A carpenter can usually cut a bit of wood or nail a nail even though they may not turn out to be much good in the broader sense

    Abbott and Bishop know how to be politicians and they have done it okay as they live the job.

    Apart from the grandstanding and chest thumping, the attendance at church services, the soft and caring words, the tough/soft contrast is what any savvy politician would do at this point in time.

    How different would either Rudd or Gillard been confronted with the same set of circumstances?

    As I said, neither Thatcher nor Anna Bligh lost out in the opinion polls when they put on the statesman hat.

  165. zoidlord

    Another hidden tax it seems:
    http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/550474/data_retention_iinet_raises_spectre_surveillance_tax_isp_customers/

    “In an edited excerpt from a submission iiNet has lodged with the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, the ISP stated that “collecting and keeping every customer’s ‘metadata’ would require the construction of many new data centres, each storing petabytes … of information at a cost of tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. There is no suggestion that the government would pay these costs, so our customers will be expected to pick up these costs in the form of a new surveillance tax.””

    Coalition Party do love taxes.

  166. poroti

    Who needs a war for senseless violence ? Just spend a weekend in Chicago.

    [Residents of Chicago were agonising again on Monday on what ails their city after another weekend of chaotic gun violence that saw at least 40 people shot ……………… the 4 July weekend which saw a shocking spike in shootings. In a four-day period, 82 people were shot across the Windy City, with 17 killed.]
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chicago-under-fire40-shot-in-one-weekend-as-gun-violence-surges-9619761.html

  167. citizen

    Now that the UN Security Council resolution on MH17 has received unanimous approval, including from Russia, there seems no reason that Abbott could now advance to ban Putin from the G20.

    This was always a hollow threat anyway. Abbott does not own G20 and, despite being the host nation this time, Australia would be very unwise to propose banning a member from attending.

    Abbott’s plan to not have climate change discussed at G20, despite Obama’s determination otherwise, is also likely to be thwarted. Even if it is not included on the formal agenda, it will be discussed in the corridors.

  168. Bushfire Bill

    [If the separatists honor the agreement, it would be a diplomatic success for Mr. Najib, whose government has been reluctant to cast blame for the airline disaster]

    Abbott v. Putin was Little Thug against Big Thug. Big Thug always wins.

    Bellowing against kids in the playground, and threatening women at university is not in the weight division of Russian strong men, who have been influencing the fate – usually disadvantageously – of hundreds of millions for centuries.

    They’ve seen hordes of goosestepping braggarts come looking for trouble, only to be utterly defeated, forced to return whence they came to lick their wounds (if they’re not already dead).

    When are we as a nation going to learn that Rule By Thuggery is no way to run this country?

    Abbott’s inner bully is striving to get out. Every time he hesitates over a convoluted utterance, tying his tongue in knots of exquisite indecision, his cringeworthy speech impediment rendering him all but impotent as the fake statesman struggles with the real palooka, he dies another political death.

    We are watching a man at war with his inner demons, denying his true nature in favour of an ersatz creation of his batallions of stage managers and spin doctors: Abbott the leader.

    He sees no connection between the initial “unfavourable” impression formed of him by Putin in Indonesia and the disdain now being shown by the Russian leader for his puny efforts to strut the world stage. While Abbott studiously ignored the Pacific’s leaders to indulge in a mutual flattery session with the Canadian Prime Minister, Putin formed his opinion of Abbott: he is a weak man who needs praise far too much.

    What works in the Coalition party room – where he has only Joe Hockey to intimidate and bamboozle – does not necessarily work at the international level, where actual wars are fought and actual people get killed.

    Quiet diplomacy by the humble Malaysians has won through where antagonism has foundered. As someone said above, it’s the outcome that the Malaysians focused upon, not the swagger.

    Which is why, of course, the polls will offer little improvement for Abbott over this business. Once a liar, always a liar. Once a papered-over, thin-lipped, tight-skinned phoney, always just that. Like the separatist thugs he enjoys kicking (from a safe distance), he is no more than a local bovver boy, dangerous to those around him, but out of his league on the diplomatic stage.

    Credlin’s Monster is getting us nowhere. He is upsetting and offending important people everywhere he goes. Time for a merciful end to his career as PM.

  169. WeWantPaul

    [How different would either Rudd or Gillard been confronted with the same set of circumstances?
    ]

    I agree with much of what you say, I don’t think Gillard would have reacted so aggressively – more Anna Bligh like – Rudd might have struggled I don’t think his natural diplomatic public service triple speak would have worked and it would have been caned in the Murdoch organs. To be fair I am sure those same Murdoch organs would have been highly critical or Rudd or Gillard if they had behaved exactly the same as Tony.

  170. Raaraa

    I’d also add to 741 that Malaysians are as outraged at Russia as the Dutch are. So much so that this has overtaken the rage that was targeted at Israel just a few days before.

    I saw many on my news feed of hatred against Jews because of the Gaza incident, but many of the cooler heads have spoken up and said, “blame the Zionists, not the Jews” after a few postings of videos of Jews protesting against Israel’s actions.

  171. Bushfire Bill

    [The editorial this morning verged on the effusive as it told us that once Abbott was free of the shackles of the Senate, poor opinion polls and the like, the true nature of Abbott’s leadership is there for all to see.]

    Sadly, only too true.

  172. guytaur

    “@joshgnosis: Bill Shorten is the keynote speaker for the Australian Christian Lobby’s national conference in October.”

    I think this is a mistake.

  173. Raaraa

    743

    It seems terrorists are more than happy to share their exploits on social media where it is hard to hide from the public once posted. I don’t see any more need to justify the costs of implementing and running mandatory data retention.

  174. BK

    BB
    Abbott doesn’t do nuance.

  175. markjs

    This Newsweek article makes it crystal clear that Malaysia’s PM Najib Razak brokered the deal for the repatriation of bodies & hand-over of the black boxes …BEFORE the UN Security Council resolution was finalised…

    Australia played no part in the negotiations..

    http://www.newsweek.com/bodies-leave-mh-17-crash-site-after-malaysian-pm-makes-deal-rebels-260106

  176. BK

    markjs
    Won’t stop the Murdoch press.

  177. WeWantPaul

    [Abbott’s plan to not have climate change discussed at G20, despite Obama’s determination otherwise, is also likely to be thwarted. Even if it is not included on the formal agenda, it will be discussed in the corridors.]

    If I was Putin or Obama I’d have it front and centre and the key element of the outcome. Humiliate the little upstart by springing it on him with majority prearranged support based on diplomacy not shouting in the local media.

  178. badcat

    [ poroti

    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Who needs a war for senseless violence ? Just spend a weekend in Chicago.

    Residents of Chicago were agonising again on Monday on what ails their city after another weekend of chaotic gun violence that saw at least 40 people shot ……………… the 4 July weekend which saw a shocking spike in shootings. In a four-day period, 82 people were shot across the Windy City, with 17 killed.
    ]

    ———————————————————

    U.S. Has More Guns – And Gun Deaths – Than Any Other Country, Study Finds

    The United States has more guns and gun deaths than any other developed country in the world, researchers found.

    A study by two New York City cardiologists found that the U.S. has 88 guns per 100 people and 10 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people — more than any of the other 27 developed countries they studied.

    MORE : http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/09/19/u-s-has-more-guns-and-gun-deaths-than-any-other-country-study-finds/

  179. guytaur

    “@Rob_Stott: Do the ACL have nude photos of the entire Labor frontbench or something?”

  180. guytaur

    “@Rob_Stott: Even Julia, who was completely willing to sell out her principles for the ACL’s support thought better of attending their conference”

    “@Rob_Stott: But Billy ‘finger on the pulse’ Shorten is diving in headfirst. We salute you, Bill.”

  181. poroti

    Well said Rob Stott. You’d have to wonder the way Rudd and even Gillard pandered to them.

  182. zoidlord

    @guytaur/750

    I agree, he should be shot for that.

  183. absolutetwaddle

    guytaur

    You’re not alone in cringing at having Shorten at the ACL. These people do not represent a Labor constituency and I don’t know what he’s doing there. He’s never struck me as a particularly religious person.

  184. slothy

    [There is no suggestion that the government would pay these costs, so our customers will be expected to pick up these costs in the form of a new surveillance tax.””]

    I hope the ISPs list it as a separate item on all accounts – ‘Abbott surveillance tax’.

    Not that I personally care about all the extra powers being given the ASIO, etc. While I’m sure they have a file on me I’m also sure most of it will be bull manure. They often get it wrong as has been shown whenever files on individuals surface.

  185. KEVIN-ONE-SEVEN

    There are two ways of looking at Shortie:
    1. He’s someone who talks to everyone despite his ideological positions; or
    2. He’s someone who talks to everyone because he has no ideological positions.
    The first is good. It would even justify going to the Australian’s 50th birthday (where, I note, he gave no speech and wasn’t photographed with Beezelbub – were those conditions?)
    The second is not good.
    I suspect that Shorties is the first type of person. Like a good union official, he tries to bring people together. We’re going to need that after the Abbott interregnum.

  186. guytaur

    “@drewsheldrick: Mon: ACL MD says there’d be no AIDS crisis if gays just married women.
    Tues: @billshortenmp announced as ACL keynote speaker. Slow clap ALP”

  187. WeWantPaul

    Got to say there are two things re ACL – I am sure there are many many Christians who consider ACL does not represent them in any way. But equally there are lots of Christians in Labor and many of them would be pleased Labor has a leader that is willing and able to meet with Christians.

    I assume intelligent left wing Christians would largely avoid the greens – if the greens show the levels of hate intolerance and ignorance displayed here.

  188. zoidlord

    @WWP/765

    The problem with your arguement WWP, is that ACL hates the internet.

    They want to impose their views on others, such as implementation of ISP Filtering.

  189. BK

    What possibly is to be gained by Shorten speaking at the ACL conference?
    Less than that which could be lost perhaps.

  190. Dan Gulberry

    wwp

    Intelligent left wing christians would also avoid the ACL.

    Just sayin’.

  191. slothy

    [A study by two New York City cardiologists found that the U.S. has 88 guns per 100 people and 10 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people — more than any of the other 27 developed countries they studied.]

    The gun death toll for American children and teens exceeds that of 9/11 year after year. The U.S. government has spent at least a trillion dollars in response to that one-off terrorist attack, but done SFA to protect the children. Telling.

    I think Howard was a disaster, but he did get the gun issue right.

  192. swamprat

    K07 @ 763

    Shorten is not just meeting everyone. It says he is the keynote speaker!

    Sounds like he is “on board”.

  193. Diogenes

    Is Shorten religious?

  194. Dan Gulberry

    In fact, let’s not mince words, the ACL is the Christian equivalent of the Taliban.

  195. citizen

    Maybe someone has already spotted this. The Guardian (UK edition) has a live blog on MH17 developments.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/mh17-un-backs-resolution-demanding-access-to-crash-site-live-blog</a.

  196. kevjohnno

    [BK
    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 11:20 am | Permalink
    What possibly is to be gained by Shorten speaking at the ACL conference?
    Less than that which could be lost perhaps.]

    Perhaps I should wait to hear the content of his speech but I can’t see any good to come from this. If the ACL ever supports anything from Labor then I’ll know we have lost the plot.

  197. mikehilliard

    Anyone read Keanes article in praise of Abbott’s tough talking Putin. Seems completely at odds with his tweets posted up here.

  198. MTBW

    Dio

    Shorten is a Catholic and attended a Private Catholic School in Victoria from memory.

  199. WeWantPaul

    [wwp
    Intelligent left wing christians would also avoid the ACL.
    Just sayin’.]

    I agree completely but I still don’t think a potential PM of the Country should avoid them like they are diseased or say really really stupid things comparing law abiding Australians to groups associated with terrorists.

  200. p m z

    I see Shorten’s trying to widen the base by further distilling whatever Labor stands for.

  201. poroti

    Whilst ours was indulging in Tarzan diplomacy the Malay PM was getting things done.

    [One man’s phone calls led to the transfer of the MH17 victims and black boxes

    “In recent days there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel,” Mr Najib said on Tuesday. “But sometimes we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome,” he said.]

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-secret-calls-led-to-breakthrough-agreement-on-bodies-blackboxes-20140722-zvikv.html#ixzz389mhsmuI

  202. sceptic

    WWP

    All societies have their “Taliban”, some more hidden than other.
    So when they are hidden where are you likely to find them?

  203. guytaur

    WWP

    So when is Shorten giving his keynote speech at a Muslim conference?

  204. Diogenes

    On Shorten and the ACL I think all that matters is what he says to them. He should be judged by that. If he panders to them, he deserves everything he gets but I can’t recall him being on the far Right side on any issue so far.

  205. Lynchpin

    Of course Shorten should go and speak at the ACL conference. How can one influence unless one is in conversation.

  206. mikehilliard

    poroti@779

    “But sometimes we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome,”

    The complete antithesis of Abbott.

  207. badcat

    [ mikehilliard

    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    poroti@779

    “But sometimes we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome,”

    The complete antithesis of Abbott.
    ]

    ——————————————————

    A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It’s a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity.

    Jimmy Carter

  208. WeWantPaul

    [On Shorten and the ACL I think all that matters is what he says to them. He should be judged by that. If he panders to them, he deserves everything he gets but I can’t recall him being on the far Right side on any issue so far.]

    I agree completely and would hope Shorten would accept similar invitations to Islamic, Buddhist and secular events. ideally he would share with all a similar message of valuing diversity, tolerance of difference and rejoicing in shared Australian freedoms, opportunities and values.

  209. guytaur

    WWP

    People are being sacked for saying the word “poofter”.

    The ACL preaches hate as a value as you can see from tweet above about Aids.

    This the value Labor wants to associate with in the week the World Aids Conderence is on? Really?

  210. rossmcg

    Shorten is pilloried on here for his pending speech to the ACL.

    Imagine the torching he would get from the Tory cheer squad if he turned down the invitation.

    Opposition leaders walk a fine line, well Labor ones anyway. Abbott could do no wrong.

    Would Shorten decline an invitation to speak at, say, the Business Council of Australian just because no one there was likely to be a Labor voter? I don’t think so.

    It is more about the message than the audience. A good speech could even have some of the moderate ACL types, and there may be some, giving him a tick.

  211. victoria

    Speaking of Bill Shorten, he is currently in Washington and has commented on the latest developments with MH17

  212. WeWantPaul

    [WWP
    People are being sacked for saying the word “poofter”.
    The ACL preaches hate as a value as you can see from tweet above about Aids.
    This the value Labor wants to associate with in the week the World Aids Conderence is on? Really?]

    Only and intolerant fool would like a politicians beliefs to the beliefs of an organization she, or he, visited on invitation.

    Your outrage and intolerance might be sensible if Shorten had just accepted a seat on the board.

    I think your hate clouds your judgement.

  213. victoria

    A rescue worker carries what is believed to be a flight data recorder at the crash site. Photo: Reuters
    But he instead held a series of secret telephone calls with Mr Borodai who is believed to have said he would only hand over the bodies and black boxes to Malaysia.
    “In recent days there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the
    As per above report

    [Malaysian people feel,” Mr Najib said on Tuesday. “But sometimes we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome,” he said.
    Mr Najib stressed the agreement would depend on work and good faith by the separatists but added they have “so far given their co-operation”.]

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-secret-calls-led-to-breakthrough-agreement-on-bodies-blackboxes-20140722-zvikv.html#ixzz389v8f8Ll

  214. zoidlord

    Remember Richard Alston? He’s a big fan of ACL.

  215. victoria

    I mangled the quotes above. Sorry

  216. guytaur

    WWP

    By your argument where do you draw the line? You would be happy for Shorten to speak at a neo nazi conference?

    I suspect not. So why accept speaking with this hateful mob just because they profess to be christian?

  217. zoomster

    THINK I just heard Barnaby saying on ABC Country Hour that if your area is drought declared but the Commonwealth budget for assistance has been spent, you’re on your own…

  218. Boerwar

    Government defence papers lodged in Tamil on-water incarceration case:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-22/government-late-on-asylum-case-deadline/5614160

  219. Boerwar

    z
    Yes. It was in relation to the Western NSW areas which are still suffering the worst drought in living memory, a/c some of the locals. These would be the same locals who, in generaly, treat climate science with as much respect as I treat astrologists, and who are increasingly ‘farming’ goats.

    It is not difficult to imagine their descendants, in a generation or two, telling the rest of Australia that the desertification of the rangelands was not their fault because they did not know about the consequences of their actions.

  220. WeWantPaul

    Sorry about the last post should clean my iPhone more often – or my glasses – or both

  221. zoomster

    Boer

    I know – fancy not managing things so that you got your request for drought assistance in well before you were actually suffering under drought conditions.

    The Federal Government cannot be held responsible for other people’s lack of foresight.

  222. zoidlord

    @Zoomster/796

    LNP Government in QLD said same last year.

    Barnarbi was too busy talking up how many roads we should be building:
    http://www.gympietimes.com.au/news/truss-talks-up-federal-budget-benefits-for-us/2316346/

  223. zoidlord

    *Truss I should say.

  224. Just Me

    [722
    kakuru

    >“Michael wouldn’t use a friendship we had in the past to advance a business interest with me. No way … He’s more professional than that,” he said.”

    Well, you can take that to the bank! ]

    Which bank? I presume.

    🙂

  225. Just Me

    [795
    guytaur

    WWP

    By your argument where do you draw the line? You would be happy for Shorten to speak at a neo nazi conference?]

    Neo-Nazis don’t constitute a significant block of votes in Oz. Christians do.

    Beyond that, the content of Shorten’s speech is what matters. Let’s wait and see.

  226. WeWantPaul

    [By your argument where do you draw the line? You would be happy for Shorten to speak at a neo nazi conference?
    ]

    Well I disagree with your basic characterisation of the ACL. I don’t think it has a good character, nor do I think it represents nearly as many Christians as it likes to think. But on the whole it is equal to or better than Senator Bullock in its views IMHO so would be odd for shorten to refuse to go to a group on the basis he does believe their values are acceptable when at least one in his own caucus holds those views.

  227. theintellectualbogan

    Bobcat at 746,
    Interesting article. Out of curiosity I pasted the figures into a spreadsheet and divided the death figures by the guns figures to get what might be called a “trigger-happiness index”, roughly representing how likely any individual gun (and hence, maybe, gun owner) is likely to shoot someone.
    Interestingly, the US is only fair to middling here, beaten by south Africa, , and some surprising candidates in Europe.
    Australian gun owners appear slightly less homicidal but still a bit poor compacted to the Poms or three Germans.

  228. Raaraa

    I am of the understanding that the ACL only represents the interest of a small minority of Christians in Australia though they may boast a bigger claim than that.

  229. theintellectualbogan

    Don’t you just love predictive text?

  230. guytaur

    WWP

    Well voters in the WA Senate vote showed what they think. You should take heed of that even if you do want to embrace RW values. So many Labor votes to gain from the RW religious bigots after all.

  231. badcat

    [ theintellectualbogan

    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Bobcat at 746,
    Interesting article. Out of curiosity I pasted the figures into a spreadsheet and divided the death figures by the guns figures to get what might be called a “trigger-happiness index”, roughly representing how likely any individual gun (and hence, maybe, gun owner) is likely to shoot someone.
    Interestingly, the US is only fair to middling here, beaten by south Africa, , and some surprising candidates in Europe.
    Australian gun owners appear slightly less homicidal but still a bit poor compacted to the Poms or three Germans.
    ]

    ————————————————–

    I think ???? this table below is in line with your thinking

    List of countries by firearm-related death rate

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

    El Salvador, Guatemala Honduros etc etc ….. guess they are not counted as “developed’ for the previous study

  232. BK

    [THINK I just heard Barnaby saying on ABC Country Hour that if your area is drought declared but the Commonwealth budget for assistance has been spent, you’re on your own…]
    Maybe they could strike a levy . . .

  233. WeWantPaul

    [Well voters in the WA Senate vote showed what they think. You should take heed of that even if you do want to embrace RW values. So many Labor votes to gain from the RW religious bigots after all.]

    I am not sure if you missed my point completely or not but I thought the selection of Bullock was a disaster – I numbered every box in both elections specially to put him last. And would have for about a dozen reasons even if he didn’t share the ACL’s opinions.

  234. poroti

    I look forward to Barnyard and Truzzzzz getting out to tell the drought affected farmers that the age of entitlement is over.

  235. Libertarian Unionist

    briefly, if you are about, check this out.

  236. Raaraa

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/photo-of-mh17-wreckage-proves-missile-attack-claims-report-20140722-zvjur.html

    The superimposed picture below is rather frightening. I wouldn’t want to know what went through the pilots’ mind when that happened.

  237. sceptic

    How can any self respecting journalist work for Rupert, News Limited is like a fish rotting from it’s head.

    A drugs trial involving the singer Tulisa Contostavlos has collapsed dramatically after a judge ruled that it was likely the Sun’s veteran investigative reporter Mazher Mahmood had attempted to persuade a witness to change his evidence and then lied about it under oath.

    http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/jul/21/tulisa-contostavlos-trial-collapses-sun-mazher-mahmood

  238. guytaur

    WWP

    Well then you can see why I said I think Shorten doing this keynote is a mistake.

    I then posted a few tweets to show reaction.

    You have been busy defending Shorten doing a keynote and using phrases like intolerant fool. This when I have not called for banning the ACL as an organisation.

    All I have done is qurstion the choice of doing the keynote and ask if these are values Labor should be associated with?

  239. Raaraa

    Essential results out.

    [While Essential’s rolling two-week voting intention average has Labor still leading 52-48 (Coalition up one point to 39, Labor down a point to 39, others level), its numbers from last week, from responses mostly in the aftermath of the shooting down of MH17, show the government moving to trail Labor by just two points, 51-49 (with the Coalition on 40% and Labor on 36%). The results reflect the media consensus that Abbott has handled the tragedy, which claimed the lives of 37 Australians and Australian residents, well. The government has struggled for months to recover its standing with voters, after a politically disastrous budget that left both the Prime Minister and Treasurer Joe Hockey damaged.]

    Not sure how the Malaysian authorities bypassing the UN on negotiations will affect this.

  240. sprocket_

    [SENATOR Jacqui Lambie is looking for a man and she only has two requirements, they must be wealthy and well-endowed.
    Speaking on Heart 107.3’s Kim and Dave Show this morning, the Palmer United Party Senator revealed that she hasn’t been in a relationship in 11 years but is open to love.
    “They must have heaps of cash and they’ve got to have a package between their legs, let’s be honest,” Lambie said.
    “I don’t need them to speak, they don’t even need to speak.”]

    I can understand now why Jacqui doesn’t think much of Tony Abbott or Eric Abetz.

    They have little cash, speak too much and have small dicks.

  241. WeWantPaul

    [All I have done is qurstion the choice of doing the keynote and ask if these are values Labor should be associated with?]

    So he should call for Bullock to be expelled for being a Christian? Let’s see how that goes.

  242. sceptic

    Raaraa

    Given where the aircraft fragment came from, the pilots would have known anything had happened.
    Also appears from the fragment photo that “shrapnel” came from below & starboard side of aircraft , which makes the accompanying exploding missile image wrong.

  243. Raaraa

    821

    Well, when she retires from politics (either by choice or not), you can say she’s lined up for the Bachelorette.

  244. Martin B

    Some groups should be engaged with to effect sone form of influence; some groups must simply be opposed. Obviously it’s a judgement call as to where the line is drawn. My judgement would be different from Shorten’s.

  245. mikehilliard

    Not very good eyesight would be a bonus.

  246. guytaur

    WWP

    Yeah you are being silly now. Get back to me when you can point to me talking of banning anyone let alone someone elected to parliament.

    Huge difference in choosing not to attend and bannning or expelling. You just see the word christian and react as if it is an attack on you.

    Well its not. I have thought of one group I think should be banned that calls itself christian. The Westboro Church in the US from protesting at funerals. So there you go one group I think should be restricted

  247. WeWantPaul

    If Shorten isn’t to associate with ACL types he needs to start by getting rid of Bullock.

    don’t know if I’d completely ban westboro baptist but I would certainly ban their public pickets.

  248. guytaur

    WWP

    Bullock is a Senator. Unless I am mistaken he is not in the leadership team. Not that it matters if he was. For Shorten to choose to attend is up to him and does not have to happen.

  249. guytaur

    @danielhurstbne: Aus govt argues non-refoulement obligations do not apply to interceptions outside territorial waters @oliverlaughland http://t.co/mQpsRid520

  250. Fran Barlow

    It seems to me that if Shorten is to address the ACL then plainly, he has to be very clear abut the policies of theirs he cannot endorse, and likewise, their perception by others and wher he stands on it.

    I see no reason in principle foir him to decline to address them, but ensuring that nobody can say that he is muddying the waters between the values he and they espouse/tolerate would be critical.

    That might be more trouble for him than it’s worth, so I am going to say that if he is making that call, in the words of Sir Humphrey Appleby, that’s “brave”.

  251. badcat

    [ WeWantPaul

    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    don’t know if I’d completely ban westboro baptist but I would certainly ban their public pickets.
    ]

    ————————————–

    I remember them from Louis Theroux :

    The Most Hated Family in America

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Hated_Family_in_America

  252. guytaur

    Hockey on 24

    its Labor and Greens wrecking mining tax repeal apparently

  253. badcat

    [ sprocket_

    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    SENATOR Jacqui Lambie is looking for a man and she only has two requirements, they must be wealthy and well-endowed.
    Speaking on Heart 107.3’s Kim and Dave Show this morning, the Palmer United Party Senator revealed that she hasn’t been in a relationship in 11 years but is open to love.
    “They must have heaps of cash and they’ve got to have a package between their legs, let’s be honest,” Lambie said.
    “I don’t need them to speak, they don’t even need to speak.”
    ]

    ———————————————-

    I think also being deaf and having very poor vision might help too ….

  254. Libertarian Unionist

    I’m guessing a tolerance for halitosis would also be handy.

  255. Player One

    FFS! How much “lobbying” does it take to get the UN to condemn the shooting down of a civilian airliner!

    Mind you, I guess most people’s natural inclination would be to dismiss Bishop the Younger as a complete airhead, and Abbott as a complete Cnut, so maybe our diplomatic staff DID indeed have to do a lot of lobbying.

  256. psyclaw

    Just watched the MH17 Condolence Book signings at Parliament House.

    Abbott and Cosgrove have to stand out the front and greet all the ambassadors as they sign, and others.

    Cosgrove stands quietly, hands clasped at front, head still, eyes lowered other than to watch the dignitories actually sit and sign.

    But Abbott, legs apart, up on toes, flexing knees, head up down left and right, hands behind, then in front then behind, eyes looking at floor, ceiling door, people, head wobbling.

    Abbott just can’t do “ceremony” either in words or actions. He has no composure. His rightful place is on a bike, riding around the world. When he’s finished, around again, and again …… For the next few decades while he grows up.

    What is really worrying is that the man has no composure, he can’t relax, he’s “fight or flight”ing 100% of the time. So how will he handle a real crisis where leadership decisions impact on the possibility that people might die, as opposed to the current circumstances in which the deaths have already occurred? When decisions will need to be taken after calm, thorough, composed consideration?

    We all know the answer I think.

  257. psyclaw

    Just watched the MH17 Condolence Book signings at Parliament House.

    Abbott and Cosgrove have to stand out the front and greet all the ambassadors as they sign, and others.

    Cosgrove stands quietly, hands clasped at front, head still, eyes lowered other than to watch the dignitories actually sit and sign.

    But Abbott, legs apart, up on toes, flexing knees, head up down left and right, hands behind, then in front then behind, eyes looking at floor, ceiling door, people, head wobbling.

    Abbott just can’t do “ceremony” either in words or actions. He has no composure. His rightful place is on a bike, riding around the world. When he’s finished, around again, and again …… For the next few decades while he grows up.

    What is really worrying is that the man has no composure, he can’t relax, he’s “fight or flight”ing 100% of the time. So how will he handle a real crisis where leadership decisions impact on the possibility that people might die, as opposed to the current circumstances in which the deaths have already occurred? When decisions will need to be taken after calm, thorough, composed consideration?

    We all know the answer I think.

  258. victoria

    Interesting conversatioin hour yesterday with Jon Faine. Goes for 45 minutes

    [Jon Faine’s cohost is Dr Andrea Carson, lecturer in Media and Politics at the University of Melbourne and an honorary fellow at the University’s Centre for Advancing Journalism.
    Their first guest is investigative journalist and author, Ben Hills. His latest book is Stop the Presses! How Greed, Incompetence (and the Internet) Wrecked Fairfax (ABC Books).
    Then they are joined by Dr Andrew Dodd, director of the journalism program at Swinburne University of Technology.]

    http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/local/melbourne/faineconversations/201407/r1305784_17913220.mp3

  259. poroti

    Meanwhile in Gaza

    [ Oh my God, Fouad … Fouad is one of them. He has been killed,” screams the medical worker before carrying out the body of his friend.

    Jaber was on a rescue mission trying to save a family of 10, most of them women and children. He died inside the house while tank shells destroyed the ambulance.

    ……….. I heard the neighbors screaming for help after a blast. I managed to get outside to try to rescue them, but it was a massacre — women and children all torn into small pieces.”

    ………..When her house was hit, she screamed out. As neighbors tried to help, they were killed outside her doorstep. “The bodies of men, women and children were scattered all over, and no one could come to help save them,” she says as tears fall.]

    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/21/gaza-shujayea-shelling.html
    [What used to be a three-storey house had been turned into debris sunk into a deep crater with twisted steel rods jutting out. Twenty-six people were killed in the mostly deadly air-strike so far in this bloody conflict. Twenty-four of them were from one family, the Abu Jamaa.]
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

  260. guytaur

    @senthorun: Homophobic violence can be just as brutal in countries that do not criminalise homosexuality. #AID2014 @ORAMrefugee http://t.co/HI5dtmTUtQ

  261. victoria

    Today’s conversation was with former MP Fran Bailey and Madonna King who has released her book on Joe Hockey. Still not on the website, but also another worthwhile discussion

  262. Pegasus

    https://newmatilda.com/2014/07/22/lifters-and-leaners-real-welfare-bludgers

    [Make no mistake, the LNP does support welfare, but only if it goes to their wealthy campaign financiers and political contributors.

    Those who struggle to make ends meet will continue to be ignored and denigrated by our government.

    This is no longer the country of the “fair go” or the champion of the “Aussie battler”.

    Australia is now becoming the country of the oligarchs, the plutocrats and the crony capitalists.]

  263. Pegasus

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/australia-says-its-obligations-to-asylum-seekers-do-not-apply-outside-its-waters
    [The Australian government has argued its international obligations of non-refoulement – returning asylum seekers to countries they have fled in fear of persecution – do not apply to interceptions outside Australian territorial waters.

    Government defence documents filed to the high court case examining the interception, procedure and treatment of more than 150 Tamil asylum seekers who left southern India in early June, also reveal that the decision not to allow the asylum seekers to be transferred to Australia was taken by the national security committee, tasked with “major international security issues of strategic importance to Australia” and chaired by the prime minister.]

  264. WeWantPaul

    [I remember them from Louis Theroux :
    The Most Hated Family in America]

    Louis has done then twice they were more repugnant the second time. I think the head of the church died a third would be interesting.

  265. mikehilliard

    psyclaw@840/841

    Worth posting twice.

    Abbott has no self control.

  266. bemused

    While waiting in a coffee shop this morning to meet someone, I idly flipped through the Herald Sun, that poor excuse for a newspaper inflicted on Melbourne by Limited News.

    I can now understand why the Russians don’t want people poking around and finding pieces of their missile!

    In what is undoubtedly a world exclusive, the Herald Sun has revealed how it violates all known laws of physics by carrying a warhead of 70Kg when the total weight of the missile, which presumably includes the warhead, is only 55Kg!

    Those cunning Russkis!

    Those idiots at Limited News!

  267. mikehilliard

    bemused

    Don’t they know it’s about 2m high? More like 550kgs

  268. mikehilliard

    Actually more like 5.5m high!

  269. poroti

    mike hilliard

    They are about 700kg according to the great Wiki so not even the old decimal point in the wrong place explains the difference. However on the wiki page under the weights is the length. 5.55 meters. now that might be where the 55 came from.

  270. mikehilliard

    poroti

    That is one f’er of a weapon. 🙁

  271. psyclaw

    MikeHilliard

    Thanks.

    Two for you :). 🙂

  272. victoria

    Australia’s public and private sectors should be teaming up in renewable energy projects to drive the diversification away from mining exports, according to Australian economist Adrian Blundell-Wignall.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/carbon-economy/green-energy-is-the-way-forward-says-economist-adrian-blundellwignall-20140722-zvlog.html#ixzz38AON0Dx1

  273. psyclaw

    I find it “interesting” that so many here have jumped on the “Silly Shorten talking to ACL” bandwagon.

    I find myself in agreement with Lynchpin and Fran, who both seem to be saying that in principle, there’s nothing wrong with it.

    So the premature ejaculators should wait until they know what Shorten will say / did say before condemning him.

  274. zoidlord

    @psyclaw/857

    I rather not have you label me poor manor, your post should be removed as it is demeaning.

    I do not support anything that ACL does and any alliance or support is only going to make his other policies such as NBN be incompatible.

  275. badcat

    [ mikehilliard

    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Abbott has no self control.
    ]

    ——————————————————

    The Next Three Word Slogan

    Posted on July 19, 2014 by archiearchive FCD

    A Fictional Tale

    About Fictional Aliens masquerading as Human Beings

    The scene; A despondent meeting in the Prime Minister’s Office.

    tony abbott, “This Senate is so hard to control. They all have minds of their own and I can’t get stuff through. It makes me look weak.”

    Peta Credlin, “Well, your popularity is so far down the tubes you cannot call a double dissolution. Rupert doesn’t have everything he wants yet so you cannot give the Government benches away. He will not like it!”

    “Well what can I do” asks a querulous tony. “OH Wait! There has been a plane crash involving Australians. Surely we can use that somehow.

    “True.” says Peta. “I remember a time when John Howard was way down in the polls and he found an international incident to cling onto and it helped raise him up in the polls.”

    “That’s right!” cries abbott. “9/11. It worked for him. He found a scapegoat and things went really well for him.”

    “Don’t forget the Russians are right next door and Putin is coming here for the G20 meeting.” Peta contributes.

    “That’s right,” crows tony. I can start blaming the Russians now and Rupert’s media will raise a huge hatred of them here in Australia. It doesn’t matter what he does overseas. Then I can ban Putin and any other Russians from coming here. That will win us the support of a majority of Australians.”

    “Hmmmm,” Peta thoughtfully says. “There is not a lot of evidence that this has anything to do with the Russians. It seems the separatists got hold of this missile system when they overran one of the Ukrainian bases. It wasn’t supplied by the Russians. Some Eastern separatist fool decided to fire at will and ask questions later.”

    “We don’t need to worry about complicated stuff like that even if it is true. We cannot make that into a three word slogan, no matter how hard we try. “Russians did it” is much more suited to convincing those dodos who vote for us. And it fits into Rupert’s headlines so well.”

    “OK.” says Peta. So now we whip up anti-Russian feeling for about three weeks. Then we ban Putin from entering Australia. Then we can do the Double Dissolution thing and get proper control of an open and adult Parliament.”

    “Yes!” concludes tony. “It worked for John Howard, it’ll work for me.”

    http://archiearchive.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/the-next-three-word-slogan/

  276. poroti

    mikehilliard

    At a kilometer a second it is also pretty fast.

  277. psyclaw

    Zoid #760

    zoidlord
    Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2014 at 10:52 am | PERMALINK
    @guytaur/750

    I agree, he should be shot for that.

    Now there’s a post which really is demeaning.

  278. Just Me

    [What is really worrying is that the man has no composure, he can’t relax, he’s “fight or flight”ing 100% of the time.]

    Abbott only gets his adrenaline hit from the act of conquering and forcing submission, not the result of it. He can’t do peacetime.

    Which is why he is so dangerous.

  279. mimhoff

    [Well voters in the WA Senate vote showed what they think.]

    That they wanted the top listed ALP candidate to be elected to the Senate?