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Federal Election 2016

Jul 26, 2014

Seat of the week: Goldstein

Covering established areas of southern coastal Melbourne, the electorate of Goldstein doesn't swing much, and has provided a safe base for Andrew Robb's parliamentary career since 2004.

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Created with the expansion of parliament in 1984, Goldstein covers coastal southern Melbourne starting from Brighton, located about 10 kilometres from the city centre, and proceeding southwards through Hampton, Sandringham and Black Rock to Beamaris. The northern part of the electorate extends inland beyond the Nepean Highway to accommodate Caulfield South, Bentleigh and surrounding suburbs. The more inland areas are naturally marginal, but the affluence of the coastal suburbs has kept the seat in Liberal hands by stable margins ranging from 5.5% in 1993 to a new high of 11.0% in 2013.

Blue and red numbers respectively indicate size of two-party majorities for Liberal and Labor. Click for larger image. Map boundaries courtesy of Ben Raue at The Tally Room.

The area now covered by Goldstein was accommodated by the electorate of Balaclava in the years immediately after federation, and then by the new seat of Henty when Balaclava was pushed northwards by a redistribution in 1913. Brighton was put back into Balaclava after 1937, and the new seat of Higinbotham covered the remainder after parliament was expanded in 1949. When Higinbotham was abolished in 1969, the area was divided between Balaclava, Henty and the new seats of Hotham and Isaacs. Beaumaris and Black Rock remained in Isaacs after Goldstein was created in 1984, at which time the new electorate extended northwards to St Kilda East. It assumed a more familiar form when it absorbed Beaumaris in the redistribution of 1996, which greatly reduced the Liberals’ competitiveness in Isaacs.

The various electorates which dominated the modern area of Goldstein were at all times in conservative hands, with the partial exception of Labor’s win in Isaacs at the 1974 election. Don Chipp held Higinbotham for the Liberals from 1960 to 1969, at which time he moved to the new seat of Hotham. Balaclava and then Goldstein were held from 1974 to 1990 by Ian Macphee, who emerged as the figurehead of the party’s moderates. Macphee was ultimately defeated for preselection ahead of the 1990 election by David Kemp, an intellectual leader of the party’s rising neo-liberal tendency, an event that provided a catalyst for Andrew Peacock’s successful challenge to John Howard’s leadership in May 1989. Kemp went on to serve in the Howard cabinet from October 1997 until his retirement at the 2004 election, as Education Minister until 2001 and Environment Minister thereafter.

Goldstein has since been held by Andrew Robb, a former Liberal Party federal director who had long been spoken of as a potential candidate for safe seats in New South Wales, where he had lived for two decades. However, Robb had originally hailed from Victoria, having been raised in a working-class Catholic family that supported the Democratic Labor Party. He came to the Liberal Party via student politics and a job at the newly established National Farmers Federation, which was an assertive voice for labour market deregulation during his period as executive director after 1985. As federal director of the Liberal Party, Robb oversaw the 1990, 1993 and 1996 election campaigns, after which he set up the marketing company Acxiom for Kerry Packer. His first term in parliament was the last of the Howard government, in which he was promoted to parliamentary secretary in January 2006 and thence to the outer ministry as Vocational and Further Education Minister in January 2007.

Robb nominated for the deputy leadership after the 2007 election, but was defeated by Julie Bishop. He instead became Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister, and was briefly discussed as a leadership candidate when Malcolm Turnbull was embroiled in the “Utegate” affair in the middle of 2009. Shortly afterwards he made the surprise announcement that he was moving to the back bench owing to a depressive illness. He returned to the front bench in the finance portfolio in March 2010, from which he was resassigned to trade and investment after the 2013 election victory.

William Bowe — Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe

Editor of The Poll Bludger

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, is one of the most heavily trafficked forums for online discussion of Australian politics, and joined the Crikey stable in 2008.

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845 comments

845 thoughts on “Seat of the week: Goldstein

  1. kezza2

    Diogs

    [Private Conversations

    While the laws are a little bit different in each state and territory, in most cases, it’s illegal to use your phone or another device to record a conversation without the knowledge and permission of everyone involved.]

    According to HeydonJ, at the RC into Unions, it’s A OK in Victoria to record private phone conversations without the other party knowing.

    And then to replay them at a public hearing.

  2. MTBW

    Tony Burke just giving a good speech!

  3. Diogenes

    kezza

    It’s okay if you have a court order.

  4. Bugler

    Diogenes,

    [Labor COS listened to the recording (I’m guessing it’s not definite) but didn’t use the recording]

    Are you saying that, while you don’t believe they did, it would be better if Labor had used the recordings for political ends?

    I doubt Labor’s particularly worried by this. Even if Labor did exactly what it’s accused of doing it’s hardly the scandal of the century. I don’t read the Age or the Sun anymore so if it wasn’t for PB I wouldn’t have heard it, despite being politically engaged and a ALP member.

    Even, hypothetically, if it had filtered through to the wider electorate, because state Newspolls are taken over three months it probably wouldn’t be reflected in any meaningful way in the overall result. If the Age really wanted to do damage they shouldn’t have wasted their last state Nielsen before this went out.

  5. guytaur

    zoomster

    I disagree with Mr Green on that. Any Tasmanian can tell you how approachable their state member is.

    Same seats apply in Federal elections. All the difference HC makes is that you have more members to represent you.
    (This fact is why Tasmania has the most politicians per capita)

  6. Greensborough Growler

    kezza,

    This is because RC have interrogation powers that supercede the powers of our court system. Of course evidence obtained from such sources is inadmissable when you get to the prosecuting of individuals for alleged crimes.

    Yet another reason why RCs are a complete waste of time and money.

  7. Steve777

    The Union witchhunt and Dick ‘ta phonegate seem to be very much a Melbourne thing. Neither have any visibility here in Sydney or on our ABC. If they are being reported it’s way down in the priorities, maybe next to the weather map. I don’t suppose it’s got anything to do with a Victorian state election just 4 months away.

  8. Diogenes

    Bugler

    [Are you saying that, while you don’t believe they did, it would be better if Labor had used the recordings for political ends?]

    Not at all. I don’t think they should have listened to the conversation but it’s not a hanging offense. Given they didn’t disseminate it, it’s pretty trivial.

  9. bemused

    Greensborough Growler@525

    The MSM have their eggbeaters on full throttle over the Baillieau tape matter. I doubt that it has registered in the minds of the voters despite an all mighty attempt to convert a lost and found story in to a major scandal to rival Watergate.

    As yet, Baillieau has not denied he did the interview and the disparaging remarks he made of his Liberal Party colleagues obviously stand. There’s your story. “Liberal Split!”

    If Ted doesn’t want taped private conversations to be broadcast, my advice is to not allow them to be taped. It’s like those vids of alleged celebrities having sex or the photo of that Rugby Player having a drink from a non-traditional source. If you don’t want it to leak out, then don’t indulge in the activity and don’t allow anyone with a camera, microphone or taperecorder to be in the room with you while you indulge.

    The Age’s reporter has to cop a fair share of the blame as well. Fancy leaving a highly sensitive tape of controversial interest in a place where it could be be found by your subjects political enemies. I’d say incompetence, immaturity and simple lack of decency and integrity by the reporter are a major factor in this story as anything else.

    For once I agree with Bemused, it’s time for the Age and Herald to put up or shut up about what crime has been committed, who committed it and whether they should be pinged for being stupid while in charge of sensitive information.

    Last time I checked, listening to a tape is not a crime.

    Comrade, is this a new beginning for us?

    I actually liked some of your lines too. e.g. “…all mighty attempt to convert a lost and found story in to a major scandal to rival Watergate.” and “…Rugby Player having a drink from a non-traditional source.”

    The burden of proof is on the Age to provide evidence in support of their allegations.

    It is difficult to prove something never happened as there is no evidence of ‘non-happening’.

  10. bemused

    MTBW@529

    I see Faulkner’s reforms didn’t get up at the State Conferences – what a surprise – the Right don’t like change.

    Neither do large parts of the ‘left’.

  11. zoomster

    guytaur

    [. Any Tasmanian can tell you how approachable their state member is.]

    And, as he points out, this is due to the geography – the electorates are small and well defined, so it’s easy for a local figure to get up.

    [Same seats apply in Federal elections. All the difference HC makes is that you have more members to represent you.]

    No, it doesn’t. For it to work federally, you would either need five times the number of politicians – which would need a new Parliament House built, for starters – or five times larger electorates.

    I can’t see the Australian public accepting the former, and the latter leads (necessarily) to MPs becoming distant and unknown figures.

    [(This fact is why Tasmania has the most politicians per capita)]

    And that helps, too.

  12. Bugler

    Dio,

    Yes, I’m surprised the Age is spending so much energy on it. Not surprised by the Sun though. Recently they had two page spreads and the front page dedicated to revelations in the RC about the CFMEU which had already been covered in the ABCC which cleared the CFMEU. Surely, given the public and long running nature of these things they’d bother to check.

  13. guytaur

    zoomster

    I am talking about how it is in Tasmania. I am not advocating for the Hare Clark system Federally.

    Stop trying to make out I am.

  14. Bugler

    Guytaur,

    Something comparable to Tasmania would be the 8 electoral regions used by Victoria for electing members of the Legislative council. The population within any one of them is almost twice the total population of Tasmania, therefore if H-C were implemented, access would still be a far greater issue than it would in Tasmania.

  15. guytaur

    zoomster

    What I am saying is your claim voters have made their choice is BS.

    What you can say is under our electoral system this period in history is the most anti major party it has been for decades.

    That is about as definitive as you can get.

  16. briefly

    [522
    poroti

    An enterprising couple make it to the crash site.]

    The couple involved in this story are friends of my family.

    I have to say that among those personally touched by MH17, there are many – including rusted-on Tories – who feel completely disgusted by Abbott’s attempts to make capital from their grief, and who are really both confused and angered by attempts to militarise the narrative.

  17. kezza2

    Diogs

    [It’s okay if you have a court order.]

    Actually, HeydonJ, quite testily dismissed Agius’ objection, about the legality of the taped conversation.

    HeydonJ said, at the time, within the Victorian jurisdiction, the secretly recorded conversation, i.e. that it was done without the permission nor knowledge of the third party, was completely legal. Aigus’ objection was moot.

  18. guytaur

    bugler

    HC comes with more members so access could be greater

  19. zoomster

    guytaur

    So what did you mean by —

    [Nice theory. Lets test it with a Tasmanian style voting system.]

    and

    [So the major parties should have no problem with adopting it then.]

  20. guytaur

    kezza

    Heydon does know communications law is Federal?

  21. guytaur

    zoomster

    I see you have not posted what I was replying to

  22. poroti

    briefly

    After such a painful journey it is good to see that they had been given such open access to the site.

  23. Bugler

    Guytaur,

    So it’s more about the number of politicians rather than the system used to elect them? (H-C is the system used in the Victorian LC, it’s just apparently called “single transferable vote” when it’s an upper house).

  24. guytaur

    bugler

    Tasmania has Hare Clark

    Its the correct model. Any different from Tasmania are modifications.

    Sounds like the Victorians were trying to save resources. Understandably enough

  25. guytaur

    bugler

    Hare Clark came from Ireland so there could be an operating HC there

  26. briefly

    567
    poroti

    It took them three attempts to gain access. They had to negotiate their way past Ukrainian as well as separatist forces, but were able to do this without any official authority or company. They just did it.

    The other feedback has been that the local population in the vicinity of the crash site are terribly traumatised….as we might expect.

  27. bemused

    briefly@561


    522
    poroti

    An enterprising couple make it to the crash site.


    The couple involved in this story are friends of my family.

    I have to say that among those personally touched by MH17, there are many – including rusted-on Tories – who feel completely disgusted by Abbott’s attempts to make capital from their grief, and who are really both confused and angered by attempts to militarise the narrative.

    I saw that couple on TV yesterday before they made it to the crash site and it was very sad.

    The woman in particular was in complete denial. Understandable of course if there is any shred of hope, but in this case hope was just unrealistic.

    I hope you are right about those rusted-on Tories and that they share their feelings around.

  28. kezza2

    guytaur
    [Heydon does know communications law is Federal?]

    Is it?

    According to Diogs, and HeydonJ, different strokes apply for different folks in different State jurisdictions.

  29. guytaur

    It appears there are both.

    Here is a reference

    http://www.privacy.org.au/Resources/PLawsST.html

  30. kezza2

    briefly
    [The other feedback has been that the local population in the vicinity of the crash site are terribly traumatised….as we might expect.]

    The very harrowing account was linked last night (sorry forget who posted it):

    After flight 17 crash, agony, debris, and heartbreak in Ukraine villages

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/after-flight-17-crash-agony-debris-and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532

  31. Bugler

    Alright, I’m confused as to where this argument is going, or indeed what it’s about, so I’ll just stop.

  32. psyclaw

    Kezza

    In Victoria you can record till your heart is content, but you can’t communicate without consent.

    In NSW you theoretically can record till your heart is content, but you can’t possess the recording without consent. This in effect means that you can’t record secretly ie without consent, cos the moment it’s recorded all things being equal, it’s probably in your possession

    The RC legislation may override these liabilities and preclude prosecution for breaches.

  33. poroti

    briefly

    Re the locals being traumatised. I keep thinking of the interview with a pensioner who found a passenger’s body had crashed through her kitchen roof. A comment by another villager revealed the passenger was not in one piece. The old lady said the body was still there because they had been told to wait until “experts came” . The stuff of nightmares for the poor lady and her neighbors.

    Then there were all the local miners and villagers ,totally untrained or prepared for such work, who had from the first day gone out to find and mark where bodies and remains had fallen .Very unlikely they will be get any trauma counseling to help cope with such an experience.

  34. psyclaw

    Interesting report from ABC’s Philip Williams this morning.

    Every time a correspondent goes into a foreign circumstance they hire a “fixer” and a driver. The fixer interprets and makes all and any arrangements.

    Williams told of his Ukraine fixer who he greatly admired. The fixer, a young guy did all liaisons at road blocks and at the site, very successfully. It was his job to persuade anyone who needed to be persuaded about anything, and along with the driver to provide all local knowledge and advice.

  35. briefly

    [572
    bemused

    I saw that couple on TV yesterday before they made it to the crash site and it was very sad.

    The woman in particular was in complete denial. Understandable of course if there is any shred of hope, but in this case hope was just unrealistic.

    I hope you are right about those rusted-on Tories and that they share their feelings around.]

    The thing is, if you’ve lost someone in this way, when you’re trying to comprehend and adjust to the shock of such an event, the last thing you should be subjected to is endless commentary, re-runs of the graphics, self-serving political interference and speculation about who might “win” and who might “lose” in a PR sense. This is just doubly-horrifying if you’re the one who has been struck by a death.

    This is so shameful, imho. Terribly painful events have been reduced to low-cost/high-impact “content” by the mass media and “opportunity theatre” by the spin-artists. Grief has been turned into wall-to-wall, 24/7, mass entertainment. There is no solace here, simply indignity heaped upon despair.

  36. briefly

    578
    poroti

    Evidently there were nearly 40 such events.

  37. psyclaw

    Just watched Shorten’s speech and I think it was perfectly OK.

    Rex provides a valuable and consistent service here …. if he slates a Labor speech or action you immediately know Labor did AOK.

  38. kezza2

    Questions Farrah Tomazin must answer:

    1. Given you had a digital recording device, why do you continue to co-author articles in which it is claimed your “tapes” have been stolen?

    This is what a digital recorder looks like:

    http://www.dicksmith.com.au/audio-mp3/digital-voice-recorders

    This is what a tape recorder looks like (scroll down):

    http://www.retrothing.com/2008/03/

    2. How did you not know the Fairfax-labelled digital recorder was misplaced at the Vic Labor Conference (Shorten held a doorstop on May 18), rather than saying it some time after the May Budget, which was on May 13?

    3. Do you often record conversations without the other person’s knowledge?

    4. Is Fairfax retaliating against the ALP because its editor Paul Ramadge and three (3) Fairfax journalists were found to illegally access Labor’s database during the last Victorian election, even though they cut a deal to escape conviction?

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/media/age-journalists-plead-guilty-to-avoid-conviction/story-e6frg996-1226689469239#

    5. Do you think it is proper for Fairfax to carry out a retaliatory vendetta against Labor a year later, and four months out from a State election?

    Et bloody cetera.

  39. guytaur

    Under Labor Counselors would have been offered from day one. This is different from DFAT providing information etc.

    Has the Abbott government done this?

  40. briefly

    thanks k2…good report

  41. Darren Laver

    [It’s like those vids of alleged celebrities having sex or the photo of that Rugby Player having a drink from a non-traditional source.]

    Another GG classic!

    Best line on here in a while 🙂

  42. kezza2

    psyclaw

    [The RC legislation may override these liabilities and preclude prosecution for breaches.]

    No, the RC legislation DIDN’T override anything.

    HeydonJ said, in the RC, that Victorian law permitted the secret recordings of phone conversations.

    End of.

    I’m not making it up. That’s what he said. In the RC.

  43. slothy

    psyclaw @ 579

    [The fixer, a young guy did all liaisons at road blocks and at the site, very successfully. It was his job to persuade anyone who needed to be persuaded about anything, and along with the driver to provide all local knowledge and advice.]

    But that is such an old fashion way of doing it. The Abbott way, sending in the SAS is way better…at rebuilding a tarnished image. Or so Abbott thinks.

  44. shellbell

    [565
    guytaur
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 1:34 pm | PERMALINK
    kezza
    Heydon does know communications law is Federal?]

    There are relevant State laws as well

  45. Darren Laver

    [The fixer, a young guy did all liaisons at road blocks and at the site, very successfully. It was his job to persuade anyone who needed to be persuaded about anything, and along with the driver to provide all local knowledge and advice.
    ]

    But let’s not kid ourselves — these so called “fixers” are mostly adept at paying the correct price to the right person. Not much more than that in most cases — just gives the necessary distance for organisations and companies to stay “pure” and not to be seen as engaging in bribery directly or knowingly. They just put their fingers in ears and say la la la when the fixer is doing said fixings!

  46. psyclaw

    Kezza

    I sometimes wonder if you can in fact read. Or are you just a bull at a gate by nature.

    What is it about my first sentence that you can’t understand? I’ll repeat the salient part.

    Under Vic legislation you can record till your heart is content.

    That’s what Heydon says. That’s what the Vic Act allows. That’s what I wrote.

  47. Diogenes

    I think in SA you can record as a personal aide memoire but can’t let anyone else listen to the recording.

  48. kezza2

    psyclaw

    Likwise, I wonder if you can read – and understand.

    It’s all very well to to say that “Under Vic legislation you can record till your heart is content” BUT, according to HeydonJ you can communicate without consent ALTHOUGH according to you, you can’t.

    That’s the difference, pal. And speaking of bulls at gates, he he he, when were you defrocked, so to speak?

  49. geoffrey

    i’m starting to worry about this govt … the collective karma os it ignorant irrationality … something bad might happen to australia – see it as punishment for stupid electoral decision last year. australians have lot to learn still

  50. psyclaw

    Kezza

    The Victorian legislation is silent as to getting permission or not to record.

    The Victorian legislation chooses to do any restricting, by restricting the communication/publication of the recording and not the actual recording.

    in contrast, the NSW legislation restricts possessionOf sectet recordings.

    The main rule in Victoria is thus as I initially wrote. You can record secretly, but it is illegal to communicate it. Like pretty well all legislation, there are exceptions ….. about 15 in this case. And under the exceptions it is probably permissible to communicate the secret recording to a RC

    It’s the history of social organisation and indeed matters of science. There are rules, and there are exceptions.

  51. sceptic

    Lynton Crosby dirt merchants spin for Cameron & the new “tough guy” Abbott

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/26/tory-women-warn-against-personal-attacks-on-ed-miliband
    The quicker they get put out of business the better for democracy

    Anyone know how their court action with Mike Kelly is going

  52. kezza2

    psyclaw

    HeydonJ made it quite clear that at the time of the recording it was not illegal. Therefore it was not illegal to communicate it.

    Maybe the law has changed since then, but so what.

    At the RC, according to HeydonJ, it was okay to communicate these recordings BECAUSE they were not illegal at the time.

    I was quite familiar with this law because of recordings my family had made in 2009.

    We hadn’t recorded phone calls, but had recorded conversations between my father and some family members.

    Explosive stuff, but inadmissible in a court of law.

    So, another question is, did Farrah Tomazin record Ted Bailleau legally?

    Would she have been able to put the transcription of that phone call in a book, for instance?

    Or would Ted have been able to invoke a law that prevented communication of the recording?

    When did the law change?

  53. psyclaw

    Kezza

    “That’s the difference, pal. And speaking of bulls at gates, he he he, when were you defrocked, so to speak?”

    Your nastiness knows no bounds. And don’t bother to reply with your usual excuses …. not interested ….. booooring.

    And your nastiness in this case as usual is so factually misplaced, given my gender. LOL

  54. psyclaw

    Kezza

    ” So, another question is, did Farrah Tomazin record Ted Bailleau legally?”

    Go back to school and do Reading Comprehension 101.

    For the 4th time, and last time, recording of conversations secretly is not illegal in Victoria.

  55. kezza2

    Last week or so ago, I made the comment that I was waiting for Scott Morrison to make an announcement about an agreement with India to take back the AS, given they’d left from an Indian port, not from Sri Lanka.

    And I wondered what the sugar offered to seal the deal. Like more uranium.

    Never did I think that Scoot would fold like a f*(ked bluffed nothing poker hand and agree to bring the AS to Australian soil, to be processed by an ex-UK colonial country, unlike our own continued subjugation to the realm.

    Operation Sovereign Borders went straight down the toilet.

    Australia’s AS policy, under the Coalition, should be now known as “India will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.”

    Scott Morrison should be tried for TREASON, apart from being called a f*)wit hypocrite to his so-called Christian would-be credentials.

  56. kezza2

    psyclaw

    Listen, I’d like to call a truce. Yes, I know I offended you some time ago by saying you had shrivelled balls. And I have apologised. Many times.

    You are the one not letting this go.

    You insult me on so many levels, but according to you that’s okay because once upon a time I said you had shrivelled balls, and despite numerous apologies, you’re determined not to forget it.

    You’re behaving in an almost girly way, in the stereotypical fashion of the way women are accused of never forgetting a slight.

    Did you know that balls are the male equivalent of ovaries, biologically speaking? Yeah, they are.

    When a foetus develops gonads, they’re internal. As a male becomes more differentiated, the gonads descend to become testicles.

    If the process isn’t successful, then a hernia occurs. That is, the possibility of a retraction back into the abdomen area because a hole in tissue that allows testicles to descend hasn’t fused.

    Back in the 60s it was called a groin hernia.

    I had a hernia operation (on the right side) when I was nine. My youngest son had a double hernia.

    So when I make fun of testicles, I’m fully aware of the relationship between ovary and testicle development.

    [” So, another question is, did Farrah Tomazin record Ted Bailleau legally?”

    Go back to school and do Reading Comprehension 101.]

    Listen dick, HeydonJ said the recording was legal in Victoria when it was made. The fact that it was no longer legal, in 2014, according to Agius, was moot.

    Therefore, it’s perfectly legitimate to ask Farrah Tomazin that question.

    Which part don’t you understand? Perhaps you should take your own advice and do yourself a favour and quickly enrol in Reading Comprehension 101.

  57. slothy

    [‘The state of Palestine should be based on 1976 borders with agreed land swaps and with security guarantees for itself and Israel.’]

    I hope the date is a typo and it is the 1967 border.

  58. zoomster

    psyclaw

    wow, that was some apology — and following it up by calling you a ‘dick’ showed the depth of its sincerity…

  59. kezza2

    zoomster
    [wow, that was some apology — and following it up by calling you a ‘dick’ showed the depth of its sincerity…]
    Trust you to buy into this. I wasn’t apologising again, I had already done so, on numerous occasions. I was asking for a truce.

    Calling psyclaw a ‘dick’ showed exasperation, not insincerity.

    But you have a conflict of interest here. I’m surprised you didn’t declare it.

  60. zoomster

    kezza

    I have no conflict of interest anywhere.

  61. poroti

    What a phony Tony. He spoke to Putin overnight and supposedly “emphasized to Putin the need for an independent international investigation.” . Dealing firmly with Vlad the Impaler , putting the hard word on him ?

    Not on your Nellie. Putin called for that from day one , preferably the UN civil aviation authority, because by custom Ukraine would be in charge of the investigation.

  62. ruawake

    I see Julie Bishop has put a coiled black snake on her head and told the Ukraine to recall its parliament, because she was told they would have signed something by Friday.

    But due to the PM resigning, Parliament will not sit until Thursday at the earliest, and they may have more pressing matters to discuss than M17. (Like paying their troops)

    The solution is to send in unarmed AFP and no ADF, but if a stray Kalashnikov on the wrong end of a flagon of vodka gets fired who takes the blame?

  63. guytaur

    “@ABCNews24: Live: Prime Minister @TonyAbbottMHR media conference now on #ABCNews24. Watch http://t.co/FlRWJArtyW”

  64. shellbell

    Link to latest of the hearings before Hayne J on the High Court case for the soon to be occupants of Curtin.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/HCATrans/2014/153.html

    Need to scroll 4/5ths of the way down before anything happens given the number of parties.

    Lot of it is procedural stuff but there is a mini judgment from Hayne J starting with this:

    [The plaintiff was a passenger on an Indian flagged vessel (“the Indian vessel”) which left Pondicherry, India. On or about 29 June 2014, an Australian Border Protection vessel (“the Australian ship”) intercepted the Indian vessel in Australia’s contiguous zone as defined in section 8 of the Maritime Powers Act 2013 (Cth). On 29 June 2014, maritime officers from the Australian ship boarded and detained the Indian vessel, detained those on board the vessel and either took them, or caused them to be taken, onto the Australian ship.

    On 1 July 2014, the National Security Committee of Cabinet decided that those on board the Indian vessel should be taken to a particular place, which is a place outside Australia. On 7 July 2014, passengers from the Indian ship applied to this Court for urgent interim relief preventing their being given into the custody of the Sri Lankan Government.]

  65. BK

    rua
    Was it a puff adder by any chance?

  66. BK

    guytaur
    Forgive me if I don’t watch it.

  67. kezza2

    My opinion of the IDF and Gaza.

    I reckon Haliburton, or some other industrial military materiel provider, did a stocktake at the end of the financial year and decided that all supply contracts had to be renewed and all the squirrelled munitions had to be expended.

    How to resurrect a war situation to get rid of surplus armaments?

    The IDF conjured a confrontation – the killing of two teenage Palestinians in May, hoping for retaliation.

    And so it came to pass.

    Three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and killed.

    Another Palestinian teenager was kidnapped, and burned alive, in retaliation.

    Three eyes for three eyes.

    But, that was not enough. There had to be expenditure of armaments. The stockpile in Haliburton’s factories was too much.

    So, off to war for a month. Never-ending terror.

    So, what’s the stocktake now?
    Fancy that, Israel needs more armaments.

    Yeah, the stockholders of Haliburton and co are happy. Factories humming nicely.

  68. Darren Laver

    Looks like the High Court is becoming a Refugee Tribunal on steroids these days.

    Our founding federation fathers would be spinning in their graves that the constitutional court is so often being used in this way.

    Surely there is a better way? Everyone else has had to tighten their belts.

  69. guytaur

    He is changing position again

    “@ABCNews24: Abbott: AFP officers will be deployed as part of an unarmed Dutch-led international, humanitarian mission #MH17”

  70. guytaur

    As predicted Abbott is falling into line with what the Dutch have said is the way to go

  71. guytaur

    “@ABCNews24: Abbott: The advice I have is that the safest way to conduct this mission is with unarmed officers #MH17”

  72. Darren Laver

    Dear Kezza,

    just relax a little and we’ll all love you a bit more than present.

    This bull-at-a-gate stuff is not good for you or the rest of us in the long run. Life is too short for verbal sprays.

    Zoomster is well respected here and puts her own name and reputation to her posts, and has run for federal office. Show her a little grace, if not for her then for us, your esteemed colleagues here in the PB lounge.

    Regards & hugs,

    Darren

  73. BK

    It would seem that Peta has decreed that “unarmed” is the word de jour.

  74. guytaur

    😆

    Abbott saying he will be surprised if “it” lasts for more than 2 or 3 weeks.

  75. poroti

    Tony presser . Our chaps going in “unarmed” announced three times in the first couple of minutes. Apart from that utter non surprise the news content = zero.

  76. Darren Laver

    Kezza, you’re on the right track there in terms of looking at who gains from weapons sales — to me, it seems Hamas is the best friend arms manufactures ever had.

    IDF doesn’t need to invent an enemy, they are surrounded by them!

  77. slothy

    Ethiopian women in Israel ‘given contraceptive without consent’

    [The phenomenon was uncovered when social workers noticed the birth rate among Ethiopian immigrants halving in a decade. An Israeli documentary investigating the scandal was aired in December and prompted a popular outcry.]

    […More than 50,000 Ethiopian Jews have immigrated to Israel in the past decade. The fast-growing community has struggled against bias. In 1996, thousands rioted when it was discovered that the Israeli health ministry had destroyed all stocks of blood donated by Ethiopians on the grounds that it might be contaminated with HIV.

    Israel’s health ministry has strongly denied allegations that the injections are part of a policy to control the growth of the Ethiopian community.]

  78. guytaur

    Oh no it gets worse

    “@ABCNews24: Abbott: Our teams are going in unarmed. This is a police mission and has absolutely nothing to do with the politics of Eastern Europe #MH17”

  79. poroti

    Did Abbott hold up the investigation ? The Ukraine parliament only needed to ratify the agreement if they were to be armed.

    Abbott is running a 100 miles an hour from any suggestions the ADF has anything but the slightest part in things now.

  80. BK

    [“@ABCNews24: Abbott: Our teams are going in unarmed. This is a police mission and has absolutely nothing to do with the politics of Eastern Europe #MH17”]
    But PLENTY to do with the politics of Australia!

  81. poroti

    Abbott rebels “on the ground are polite and respectful” . But Tones I thought they were a bunch of baby eating thugs.

  82. shellbell

    [Our founding federation fathers would be spinning in their graves that the constitutional court is so often being used in this way.]

    It has always been much more than a constitutional court.

    Court 3 in the High Court building has provision for a jury although none has sat since WWII.

    Before Sir Nigel Bowen came up with the idea of the Federal Court, High Court judges could hear, as trial judges, disputes involving interstate parties.

    Richard Ackland recently bemoaned the high proportion of appeals from motor accidents, even asbestos claims the High Court heard. He would prefer it to be doing something he considers more mighty such as bill of rights stuff if we had one.

    I think that is crap.

    The High Court should sit in judgment of the decisions of lower courts when the broader justice of the case and the rights of the parties so decide.

  83. ruawake

    Abbott does double backflip with half twist, from bringing the perpetrators to justice he has moved to get in, get the bodies, and get out. (Hopefully without getting shot).

    Will Abbott release the ONA risk assessment, and if more than 4 people are killed will he call a royal commission into his actions?

  84. shellbell

    Sceptic

    Kelly has taken a series of procedural points (including an attempt to go to the High Court) which have failed at significant cost.

    The substantial case appears unresolved and the Federal Court webpage does not suggest an imminent hearing.

  85. caf

    Looking at that satellite view of Goldstein in the article, one wonders how those golf courses can possibly be the most economically efficient use of their land area. Surely it must be worth a lazy few billion?

  86. kezza2

    [guytaur
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 4:52 pm | PERMALINK
    He is changing position again

    “@ABCNews24: Abbott: AFP officers will be deployed as part of an unarmed Dutch-led international, humanitarian mission #MH17”]

    I could sort of understand why some sections of the community disliked JG as PM. Mainly because her strong “seemingly uneducated” accent mirrored their own sense of inferiority – you know, they’d been laughed at before – and wanted the BBC-type voice of authority.

    But, when we look at Abbott, an idiot by anyone’s measure – charming though he might be one-to-one – we don’t want a stuttering indecisive slogan-bogan as a leader. And we can all tell a pretentious prick a mile away.

    And, we don’t want a war-mongerer either. We’re sick to death of war. And of PTSD. We, on the ground, are still dealing with the aftermath WWII and of the Vietnam War, let alone the psychoses let loose from Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Abbott’s parents did everything they could to shield him from the horrors of war, yet he seems to be quite willing to be the stooge that leads us into another.

    If only Hockey had belted Abbott in the solar plexus during that rugby match so long ago, or sat on him even.

    Instead Hockey allowed a one-punch jaw-punch and has been second-best ever since. Although it seems, he has been secretly harbouring vengeance.

    Pity it’s not for Australia’s sake, but his own petty over-indulged self-entitled nature.

    In another world, I laughed when Hockey said his wife had advised him not to allow an authorised biography, but the twat Hockey ignored her and asked Abbott for advice.

    And Abbott told him to go for an ‘authorised’ biography.

    Jeezus, Hockey trusted the bastard again.

    Is there any other reason not to think Hockey is an idiot of the first degree?

  87. guytaur

    Shellbell

    Well posted. Our legal system is not some clone of the Americans

  88. psyclaw

    Zoomster

    Thanks.

    If you read today’s post between Kezza and me you will see that I (stupidly) sincerely tried to provide info she requested.

    She got back to me forcefully, then nastily.

    She believes she mortally offended me with a comment about “dried up testicles” some months ago ……. and that I have been offended ever since…. she seems to have no idea that the testicle business was NA to me, and ironically humorous. It was mentally conveyed to the trash can of my mind immediately on receipt. I could’t give a toss about it.

    She will be unable to find one post where I have been nasty to her except to the extent that I have on occasions responded to her crudity and offensiveness and nastiness, perhaps a bit forcefully.

    She has assured PB numerous times that her life has been so tough that she doesn’t give a shit what people think about her so I guess she won’t change. I guess that’s the nature of the tapestry of life, here and in the real world.

  89. psyclaw

    Wonder about the implications of the various negative responses since Morriscum announced that foreign officials will interview the ASs at Curtin.

    Will he back down?

    Will the issue be joined tonthe current HC case?

    Will it spawn another HC case?

  90. shellbell

    psyclaw

    [Will the issue be joined to the current HC case?]

    Curtin does raise the spectre of whether case is so materially different to make it one which should be addressed at a lower level, where facts are normally established by evidence, but on the basis that the persons remain at Curtin(or somewhere else in Oz).

  91. roger bottomley

    Newspoll should be interesting. I suspect all the turd polishing of Abbott will have the desired effect and probably put him in front on PPM.

    Will the LNPGet a poll bounce out of the Malaysian flight situation. Dunno. I suspect so – seems to be conventional wisdom.

  92. zoomster

    psyclaw

    no worries – with me she suffers from the delusion that I feel slighted because she thinks fran is a better teacher than I am (or something)… you get used to it.

  93. frednk

    The Baillieau tape matter…… What reporters do these days is such a bore it’s hard to keep enough interest to keep track but have I got this right?

    An age reporter found something out and tried to keep it secret but someone let the secret out; and there has been column meters printed on who let the secret run.

    Do reporters do more than pontificate and try and keep secrets these days?

  94. bemused

    zoomster@639

    psyclaw

    no worries – with me she suffers from the delusion that I feel slighted because she thinks fran is a better teacher than I am (or something)… you get used to it.

    Hahaha… you and Fran would be quite different teachers but both good IMHO.

  95. kezza2

    psyclaw
    [She believes she mortally offended me with a comment about “dried up testicles” some months ago ……. and that I have been offended ever since…. she seems to have no idea that the testicle business was NA to me, and ironically humorous. It was mentally conveyed to the trash can of my mind immediately on receipt. I could’t give a toss about it.]

    That’s why, of course, you dragged it up – from the depths of your consignment to the trash – just recently.

    And why, ever since, I have apologised to you. I’d forgotten about it, but you hadn’t.

    So don’t come the innocent in this.

    If I sincerely didn’t feel bad for saying that to you, I would never have apologised. I would have ignored you.

    I feel quite a dick for laying my life out for all of you. And quite rightly you’re all sick to death of me.

    But, despite everything, all of you, including you psyclaw, have helped me come to terms with what happened to me.

    I had to say it out loud. Just in case it was normal. And I was over-reacting.

    And I know that there were much much worse things that could have happened. So, when it all got too much, I was lucky to have an outlet here.

    So, a general apology to everyone for being a shit.

    Doesn’t mean I’m not going to say what I think.

  96. Darren Laver

    [Hahaha… you and Fran would be quite different teachers but both good IMHO.]

    Yes, would be happy with both as teachers of my nieces and nephews!

  97. Kinkajou

    Will the LNPGet a poll bounce out of the Malaysian flight situation?

    Sooner or later before malaysia has no planes left, the libs appearing to be the only beneficiaries and desperate to utilise what is given

  98. Trog Sorensen

    Abbott’s virtue — so far — is the sense of control he brings to the crisis. He is measured yet firm, not overwhelmed by events yet adapting and changing as the situation changes. Paul Kelly

    I agree with Mr Kelly’s insightful comment. Now that all danger has gone from the MH17 crash scene, we no longer need to insert armed troops.
    A lesser strategist than Tony Abbott might not have picked up on the need for this tactical shift.

  99. Darren Laver

    [Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 5:15 pm | PERMALINK
    Shellbell
    Well posted. Our legal system is not some clone of the Americans]

    No-one suggested it should be. Just that it should not be a trumped up refugee claims tribunal.

  100. Kinkajou

    An age reporter found something out and tried to keep it secret but someone let the secret out; and there has been column meters printed on who let the secret run

    Didnt try too hard one would think, then left the evidence? divulged the evidence? the coincidences!

  101. ruawake

    [Will the LNPGet a poll bounce out of the Malaysian flight situation?]

    They may, but it will really be because other issues have been pushed into the background. The problems are still there and will not go away.

    Abbott has refused to answer any questions bar M17 for a week, lots of issues are festering in his silence.

  102. Tricot

    Who can make anything of this…..?

    AFP on Yahoo 7 news on line…..

    “…..a number of armed personnel will enter the MH17 crash site next week………………….

    ABC on line………….”an unarmed police group……….for humanitarian purposes…..” will be there.

    I wonder just how the rat bag group of separatists will view any uniformed group in large numbers of foreign armed/unarmed people on their patch?

    All the agreement with the Ukranians is useless unless this abive group gives it the go-ahead and I guess that will depend on what Moscow has to say.

    As I get it, the Ukranians cannot guarantee anything in this neck of the woods.

    Surely not even Abbott would be stupid enough to put our guys at risk in this situation?

  103. ruawake

    Bottom line from all of Abbott’s posturing.

    [There will be a total of 49 police on site, 11 of whom will be Australian]

  104. slothy

    Trog Sorensen @ 647

    [A lesser strategist than Tony Abbott might not have picked up on the need for this tactical shift.]

    A better strategist would not have suggested sending armed cops and troops into that situation in the first place.

    I also suggest the “tactical shift” wasn’t his idea, but was forced on him by wiser heads, Houston and Defence, i.e. people who actually know what they’re doing.

  105. lizzie

    kezza

    I have just spent a weekend with Puff and her dogs, so perhaps that is influencing me.

    When you get a little snappy it always reminds me of a dog who has been mistreated and snaps at the hand that reaches out to it, in the belief that no hand will be gentle.

    (This does not apply to Puff’s dogs, btw)

  106. Trog Sorensen

    slothy

    Sorry, I was being sarcastic.

    I think Angus Houston was quite clear about this issue on Insiders when he stated that armed forces were not a good idea.

  107. poroti

    Tricot

    Someone left the “un” off. Abbott and the AFP guy said “unarmed” and civilian” about a dozen times. As for the “rat bag” group. At the AFP and Abbott presser we were told they have been found to be “polite and respectful”.

    The delay has been from Kiev’s end not the rebels. They have already agreed but there has been delay due to something needed to be ratified by Kiev .

  108. slothy

    [Bottom line from all of Abbott’s posturing.

    There will be a total of 49 police on site, 11 of whom will be Australian

    ]

    So the other ~170 fed. cops and an unknown number of SAS cooling their heels in Europe will now be coming home? If so, how much did this exercise in hairy chest beating cost? Will no one think of the ‘Budget Emergency’?

  109. shellbell

    The States have been invited to appear at the HC asylum case to make submissions on the exercise if executive power.

    It would be unusual for a state government to oppose the Feds if their political interests coincide so I expect only SA to appear

  110. MTBW

    [There will be a total of 49 police on site, 11 of whom will be Australian]

    So that is worth all of the grandstanding we have seen from Abbott?

    Thank God we have Angus Houston in control there is a very decent and respectful man unlike our noxious PM.

  111. ruawake

    Fact we know about Australian involvement in M17

    20 AFP in the Netherlands doing victim id work.
    170 AFP pre-positioning to Ukraine (operational secrets has infected the AFP commissioner) my bet is they are in the UK.
    SAS troops somewhere, secret squirrel, fairy snuff.
    11 AFP plod doing FIFO work with the Dutch.

    Thats it. Until the next presser when Abbott may thank locals for getting most of the bodies into bags, sorry just joking about that bit.

  112. zoidlord

    @ruawake/658

    I thought there was a budget emergency going on?

  113. poroti

    Dinosaurs may have been far cuter than we thought.

    [Many dinosaurs were ‘fluffy like a chick’, new findings suggest

    Almost every dinosaur was either covered in feathers, or had the capacity to grow fluffy ‘chick-like’ feathers, new findings suggest]

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/many-dinosaurs-were-fluffy-like-a-chick-new-findings-suggest-9630714.html

  114. guytaur

    Part of Abbott’s potential poll bounce was stolen by Israel. Once their attack started the MH story fell down the order. Thayt and Commonwealth games athletes doing well.

  115. Trog Sorensen

    Why can’t we have people like Angus Houston in the cabinet. Instead we get f%(king lawyers like Hockey and Cormann – too many on both sides.

  116. slothy

    Trog Sorensen @ 653

    [Sorry, I was being sarcastic.]

    Oops, my sarcasm detector must be on the fritz. 🙁

    [I think Angus Houston was quite clear about this issue on Insiders when he stated that armed forces were not a good idea.]

    I’d be very surprised if Abbott wasn’t being counseled on the absurdity of this right from when he first floated the nonsense. If he wasn’t then heads need to roll. Or is he so insulated that such advice can’t get through. In which case heads still need to roll.

  117. Fulvio Sammut

    Cormann’s a lawyer?

    Where did he get his degree?

  118. CTar1

    [The High Court should sit in judgment of the decisions of lower courts when the broader justice of the case and the rights of the parties so decide.]

    Yep. Casual day-to-day stuff but what they’re there to do. The high-faluting can be fitted in between.

    Am I supposed to say ‘Go Waratahs’ now?

  119. kezza2

    zoomster

    [no worries – with me she suffers from the delusion that I feel slighted because she thinks fran is a better teacher than I am (or something)… you get used to it.]

    Actually, my first run-in with you was about Julian Assange. Otherwise we got on like a Labor house on fire.

    I objected to your stance. And we argued back and forth.

    In the end, you weren’t going to change my mind, nor me yours.

    As far as teachers go, from what both you and Fran had written, Fran most resembled my Grade 5 teacher. A person who was willing to give a kid a go. Who recognised there was something troubling happening at home.

    I thought you were second-best, in those stakes, although not very far behind.

    Most of the time I respect your point of view. But I’ve come to realise if I don’t agree with you, then you’re not the sort of person to ever give an inch.

    A bit like my father. And I didn’t bow to his will, and I’m certainly not going to bow to yours, without a logical explanation.

    Just like the recent conflagration between us about calling the cops on a neighbour.

    We obviously disagree on this point, too.

    But that doesn’t stop me from thinking you’re a pretty terrific person in terms of what you do for a community, for a district, for a region, or for what you do for the Labor party.

    I do
    admire your polite restraint. And your never-ending contribution to your community.

    And, not the least, your incisive criticism of prognostications in the dailies.

    More strength to your arm.

  120. lizzie

    Wasn’t there a hint in Joe’s biography that Abbott has a tendency to make policy decisions without consulting anyone? Sounds as if Houston has been ignored.

  121. Trog Sorensen

    guytaur

    Part of Abbott’s potential poll bounce was stolen by Israel.

    Also a mistake by some drunken separatist doesn’t seem all that much worse than the calculated slaughter by Bibi Netanyahu.

  122. CTar1

    [my first run-in with you was about Julian Assange]

    Ahh, Julian Assange. The moss must need chipping off him by now.

  123. poroti

    slothy

    The AFP boss said he always wanted it to be unarmed police/civilians to go in so Abbott would have been told. Angus Houston would almost certainly have said the same.

  124. Fulvio Sammut

    You mean Senator Assange, don’t you?

  125. poroti

    CTar1

    [Am I supposed to say ‘Go Waratahs’ now?]

    Yes, but remember it is spelt “C-r-u-s-a-d-e-r-s

  126. Trog Sorensen

    Fulvio

    Cormann has a law degree froma Catholic University somewhere – I don’t know whether he has ever practised – seems to have spent most of his “working life” as a political operative.

    Same sort of work experience qualifications as Christoper Pyne i.e. nothing of substance, apart from studying to be an ar%%hole.

  127. bemused

    Trog Sorensen@668

    guytaur


    Part of Abbott’s potential poll bounce was stolen by Israel.


    Also a mistake by some drunken separatist doesn’t seem all that much worse than the calculated slaughter by Bibi Netanyahu.

    Netanyahu is worse.

    I used to sympathise with Israel seeing them as the David surrounded by the Goliath of all the Arab states.

    How naive I was!

  128. Tricot

    The sensitive bit is that Abbott is able to play the role of Chief Mourner – and I guess nobody would begrudge this role.

    The conservatives of course would be upset if the opposition accused Abbott of playing politics and perhaps so.

    But, and this is the salient point, for the whole week the conservative press have milked Abbott and Bishop’s profiles as being wonders too behold.

    The West had a sick-making editorial on the Tuesday of last week I think it was, telling us just how good our Great Leader is, and then on Wednesday a huge page one spread of Julie Bishop hailed a “Woman of Steel”. Equally sick-making.

    The conservatives have played the domestic impact of this Abbott-Bishop stuff to the hilt.

    The point is that now that Abbott has in fact played the domestic political impact for all it is worth he is vulnerable every time from here on in when he decries the role of the UN or demand Oz just concentrate on things around our zone.

    The sad thing for Abbott is that if the BBC is anything to go by, the world news has long passed the used by date of MH17 as being all that newsworthy – other than the EU mulling about how to get at Putin.

  129. Trog Sorensen

    slothy

    Have reduced the setting on my sarcasm obfuscation app.

  130. slothy

    lizzie @ 667

    [Wasn’t there a hint in Joe’s biography that Abbott has a tendency to make policy decisions without consulting anyone?]

    I doubt the brain cell he uses to make the decision even consults the other one!

  131. CTar1

    poroti

    [es, but remember it is spelt “C-r-u-s-a-d-e-r-s]

    And their Dogs.

  132. psyclaw

    Slothy and Trog

    Quite right.

    Whilst Russia and the USA have probably always been involved in wars somewhere since WW2, they have always involved other nations’ wars and / or confined to another nation ….. something like that.

    I don’t think there has been a real threat of a WW3 ….. don’t know for sure but this is my take on it.

    However since the demise of the USSR and then the Crimean “secession” and the wishes of Russian ethnics in East Ukraine expressed by the arise of the current rebels, I have had a sense that Russia might just be a tad sensitive about this whole box and dice, and more so after MH17.

    So I thought that other nations would automatically give deep thought to any idea of forcefully trying to take control of the crash site lest the actual MH17 matter itself became secondary to military action as a result of MH17 motivated soldiers and rebels engaging in shooting at each other, with Russia playing some role in the background. I thought that other nations would be a bit circumspect, a bit patient, a bit oriented towards negotiation.

    From what I gather, Netherlands and Malaysia, the two most directly involved nations were indeed circumspect, as gar as can be judged from info available here in Australia.

    Only Abbott was gung ho from the start, full of aggro talk. Apparently he could not conjure up an image of Australian soldiers shooting at the rebels and vice versa, and just what the implications of such would be.

    Fortunately today Angus Houston put my mind to rest in his interview with FKelly. Without mentioning Abbott by name, Houston calmly tore to shreds everything Abbott has been saying this week.

    A generous interpretation of Houston’s words is “Tony, you got this wrong”. A realistic interpretation of Houston’s words is “Abbott ….. you are an fwit talking crap. Hopefully you’ll listen to what I’m saying and shut the f… up”.

    Thankfully Angus H and not Angus 3Star Whatever, Morriscum’s lackie and government sycophant, was the one sent to the Ukraine.

  133. KEVIN-ONE-SEVEN

    After announcing that we were sending over half of the AFP to launch the Invasion of the Ukraine, Abbott’s next announcement will be that we are sending a troop of boy-scouts armed with water pistols. What a frickin’ moron.

  134. guytaur

    @StuartSyvret: “Beyond Contempt” – This is going to be a fascinating & important book; by @peterjukes – read the preface here: http://t.co/VqkXNMceD2

  135. psyclaw

    Tricot

    Unfortunately we’ve got a fair bit more of the MH17 Abbott to endure yet.

    Anything up to 38 or so funerals to go and numerous nightly news clips.

    His dominant fluoro vest tendencies stamp him as one who will want to be recorded hugging every bereaved relative he can, come hell or high water.

  136. psyclaw

    Kezza

    I hereby raise a white flag.

  137. bemused

    psyclaw@679
    There is a need for the area around the crash site to be quarantined from military action while recover activity is under-way.

    Ukraine can play a part in this by ceasing any military activity in the area so that negotiation and subsequent co-operation is only with the secessionist forces.

    From what Angus Houston said, this is not really a problem and the local population and the secessionists have been as good as one could wish.

  138. Trog Sorensen

    Now that Abbott and Bishop have had to buy totally into the whole Rudd UN thing, it will create some real problems for them down the track. e.g. Australia being the odd sheep out in Ban Ki Moon’s global action on climate change.

    You can hardly insist on consensus on something like MH17, and then argue that other things of concern to the rest of the world, such as action on the health, economy and environment for future generations is of low importance.

  139. kezza2

    [Tricot
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 6:24 pm | PERMALINK
    The sensitive bit is that Abbott is able to play the role of Chief Mourner – and I guess nobody would begrudge this role.]

    Hell no, not me.

    Let’s see. Abbott has to attend the funerals of 27 Australian nationals.

    And then he has to fly off to various countries to bury those nationals who had lived in Australia for some time – you know, those people he claimed as Australians, to make the death toll = 38.

    That’s another 11 funerals, the latest (the 38th) being an NZ national.

    Good luck tony. Let’s see your compassion, etched in your brow, replicated for the press.

  140. CTar1

    GG

    [Or rabbits!]

    Classic and still 😆 .

  141. poroti

    KEVIN-ONE-SEVEN

    Abbott channeling Maxwell Smart.

    [Maxwell Smart: I think it’s only fair to warn you, this facility is surrounded by a highly trained team of 130 Black Op Snipers.

    Siegfried: I don’t believe you.

    Maxwell Smart: Would you believe two dozen Delta Force Commandos?

    Siegfried: No.

    Maxwell Smart: How about Chuck Norris with a BB gun? ]

  142. shellbell

    CTar1

    I have always supported the Brumbies in their finals, so it is only right and just….

  143. Socrates

    I saw this story about the NSW resolution of Labor recognising a Palestinian state.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/27/labor-may-consult–recognising-a-palestinian-state?CMP=ema_632
    [“NSW Labor welcomes the decision of the Palestinian Authority to commit to a demilitarised Palestine with the presence of international peacekeepers, including US forces,” the amendment said.

    “If, however there is no progress to a two-state solution, and Israel continues to build and expand settlements, a future Labor government will consult like-minded nations towards recognition of the Palestinian state.”]
    What a great step forward by the party to adopt this resolution. Long overdue. We really get nothing out of our blind support of the nation that abuses stolen or forged Australian passports to do its black ops, and trades with us very little. There is good reason for Labor to adopt this position, as well as the fact that it is morally and legally far more credible than the status quo.

  144. ruawake

    [The sensitive bit is that Abbott is able to play the role of Chief Mourner – and I guess nobody would begrudge this role.]

    Not me either, this is the role of the GG, not the PM. I assume Cosgrove is in The Netherlands waiting for a coffin to salute when he should be visiting families in Australia who have lost loved ones.

  145. CTar1

    Shellbell – I’ll get it done.

    Go Tah’s (best next).

    They’ve earned their chance. My guys done twice in similar ways.

  146. ruawake

    [Repent Ye Whackos! ‏@geeksrulz 6m
    Malaysia says only 30 investigators needed at crash site. Sending 190 AFP unnecessarily increases tensions.
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/fewer-can-do-the-job-on-mh17-site-investigation-malaysia-20140727-zxcac.html#ixzz38em1ncT7 … #auspol]

    I think it would be safe to say Abbott has made the wrong call on each decision.

  147. Trog Sorensen

    ruawake

    I assume Cosgrove is in The Netherlands waiting for a coffin to salute when he should be visiting families in Australia who have lost loved ones.

    The military style honours for the MH17 coffins is incongruous.

  148. BK

    [After announcing that we were sending over half of the AFP to launch the Invasion of the Ukraine, Abbott’s next announcement will be that we are sending a troop of boy-scouts armed with water pistols. What a frickin’ moron.]
    Just giving them a bit of work experience.

  149. bemused

    Trog Sorensen@695

    ruawake


    I assume Cosgrove is in The Netherlands waiting for a coffin to salute when he should be visiting families in Australia who have lost loved ones.


    The military style honours for the MH17 coffins is incongruous.

    Yes, I just don’t get it at all.

    But it seems the Ukrainians and Dutch got it going.

    If I was a bereaved relative, I would not want it at all.

  150. Dee

    [Almost all jobseekers will be required to work for the dole under tough new federal government rules expanding the scheme.

    The government is making it mandatory for jobseekers aged 18 to 49 to work for their welfare payments from July 1, 2015.

    Those aged 18 to 30 will be required to work 25 hours per week while people aged 31 to 49 will have to work 15 hours.

    Those over 50 will have the option of participating in the program.

    The new rules will ensure jobseekers are actively looking for work, Assistant Employment Minister Luke Hartsuyker says.]

    – See more at: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2014/07/27/-work-for-the-dole–for-all-jobseekers.html?cid=BP_RSS_SN-TOPSTORIES_1_Workforthedoleforalljobseekers_270714#sthash.RKBMx0vX.dpuf

  151. Trog Sorensen

    Abbott’s initial aggressive stance may have played well at home but it was never correct. Right from the start we new that the separatists – or even the Ukraine – were suspects, as well as the unlikely possibility of direct action by Russian forces. Until Abbott actually knew what was going on, it was stupid to telegraph aggression to Putin, the one guy able to help you achieve your short term objectives, and to do this before you have even spoken to him.

    Sun Tzu would not have approved.

  152. zoidlord

    @Dee/698

    So they slide in bad news under the radar with the MH17, talk about poor taste.

    It will fail like last time.

  153. adrian

    [You can hardly insist on consensus on something like MH17, and then argue that other things of concern to the rest of the world, such as action on the health, economy and environment for future generations is of low importance.]

    A normal, rational person, maybe. But Abbott being neither, has made an art frorm of contradicting himself, lying and bullshitting at every turn. And of course, getting away with it.

  154. zoidlord

    @Confessions/700

    The real reason is so that Job search providers and private sector get paid.

  155. BK

    Crows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

  156. Darren Laver

    [A normal, rational person, maybe. But Abbott being neither, has made an art frorm of contradicting himself, lying and bullshitting at every turn. And of course, getting away with it.]

    A compliant fish-bowl-memory press sure helps too…

  157. Trog Sorensen

    dee

    Almost all jobseekers will be required to work for the dole under tough new federal government rules expanding the scheme.

    Pure dog whistle politics. It has absolutely nothing to do with the budget.

  158. Darren Laver

    [Crows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1]

    I prefer currawongs!

  159. psyclaw

    Bemused Comrade

    “From what Angus Houston said, this is not really a problem and the local population and the secessionists have been as good as one could wish.”

    Houston was crystal clear and unequivocal about the separatists’ not being a threat to proceedings.

    Houston’s precise words regarding them were “permissive, helpful, cooperative, professional”. I don’t see how it could more clearly be expressed that the separatists are 100% onside.

    Right now Abbott is on ABC 7pm news saying “apparently it’s now safe at the site”. The prick has listened to Houston and now begins the big retreat from his pug language.

    Next to the families, we easily lose sight of the fact that the rebels and the local people are probably going to suffer more than any other group for their lifetime, the traumatic effects of what has happened in their backyards, in their houses.

  160. BK

    Darren
    Only if cooked well.

  161. confessions

    BK:

    Damn! I tipped the PIes.

  162. briefly

    [698
    Dee

    Almost all jobseekers will be required to work for the dole under tough new federal government rules expanding the scheme.]

    This is a return to the 1920’s.

  163. Dee

    Confessions

    Thanks!

    Also front page of the Sunday Mail today.

    “War on Bludgers”

    I only glanced at it in passing and had no idea what was afoot until I read that article this evening.

  164. Dee

    Mmmm…. end of article.

    [While some aspects will come under legislation, it’s understood the new work for the dole rules could still be implemented if the Senate rejects them.]

  165. confessions

    Dee:

    Like most initiatives of this govt, it hardly seems based on evidence of effectiveness.

    Once they’ve done wrecking the joint and have finally been kicked out of govt, I just hope it isn’t going to take too long or too much cost for Labor to redress some of this madness we’ve seen.

  166. zoidlord

    @Confesssions/714

    They need to link changes to legislation.

    Thank you Labor, for infighting.

  167. Dee

    Confessions

    The ALP will need more than one term to clean up the Coalition mess.

    In all honesty, it wouldn’t surprise me if the Coalition try to force aged pensioners to do voluntary work for the pension and those disabled/incapacitated in some way will need a medical certificate for exemption.

  168. kezza2

    [psyclaw
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 6:39 pm | PERMALINK
    Kezza

    I hereby raise a white flag.]

    OKAY.

    Sounds good to me.

  169. confessions

    Dee:

    Even if we could get rid of the coalition after one term (unlikely, but not impossible), there’s still the Senate to contend with. And even though people have been lauding Clive of late as having had some kind of come-to-jesus progressive awakening, the current Senate seems more ideologically aligned with a conservative agenda, than a Labor reforming agenda.

  170. guytaur

    @ABCFactCheck: Our interactive #promisetracker is now live. See the promises the Govt has kept, broken and everything in between http://t.co/ONHRXss7dW

  171. Steve777

    “War on Bludgers”: like conservatives everywhere, this government blames the unemployed for unemployment.

  172. Darren Laver

    [709
    BK
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 7:13 pm | PERMALINK
    Darren
    Only if cooked well.
    710
    confessions
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 7:13 pm | PERMALINK
    BK:
    Damn! I tipped the PIes.]

    Yes, a well-cooked currawong pie! Mmmmmmm!

  173. KEVIN-ONE-SEVEN

    Two reasons why I think labor would do better with this Senate:
    1. Shorten actually knows how to negotiate;
    2. If they cause too much trouble, Shorten can call a double dissolution election and clean them out. I think that would be very popular. Abbott can’t do that because he is so unpopular – so they don’t take him seriously.

  174. ruawake

    Thinking on NSW ALPs decision to keep Senators and Upper House selections out of members hands.

    It was easier in Qld with no upper house to get this through, vested interest was less.

    Maybe an idea for other States is to split the Senate vote from the Upper House vote. Tiny steps an all that.

  175. confessions

    [@ABCFactCheck: Our interactive #promisetracker is now live. See the promises the Govt has kept, broken and everything in between http://t.co/ONHRXss7dW ]

    The ABC reckons only 6 broken promises? Boerwar needs to email them his list of 100+ broken promises, and that was in the first 6 months of this govt!

  176. confessions

    [Shorten can call a double dissolution election and clean them out.]

    But wouldn’t a DD election would benefit the micro parties? I’ve seen this raised as one possible reason the current govt won’t go there with PUP’s current polling.

  177. poroti

    Late breaking news from “The Times of Israel”.

    [Owl hurt by Hamas fire recovering

    Kibbutz member brings bird to Ramat Gan Safari after it was hit by shrapnel. The owl was found by Ben Itay, a kibbutz member and veterinary student, who brought him to his home.]

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/owl-hurt-by-hamas-fire-recovering/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

  178. shellbell

    Jamie Clements reacts to Mark Latham’s attack about NSW Labor by giving him the bird:

    [#labconf14 Clements: Latham is anti-union]

  179. Dee

    Zoid

    The same old tried and failed strategies for the unemployed.

    Aside from the obvious, jobs, we really need some imaginative ideas.

    Has anyone bothered to ask the unemployed what strategies may actually help ‘them’?

  180. confessions

    K17:

    Ta. Knew I’d seen it said somewhere before.

  181. guytaur

    Marathon finish in a minute or two looks like Gold 4 Australia

  182. Darren Laver

    [The ABC reckons only 6 broken promises? Boerwar needs to email them his list of 100+ broken promises, and that was in the first 6 months of this govt!]

    LOL – ABC still doesn’t get it — it doesn’t matter how apologetic it gets towards the Coalition, it will never be right-wing enough for them and will continue to cop it.

    ABC may as well bend over now and take its medicine…

  183. kezza2

    lizzie

    Are you suggesting I’m like this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhLriN3nBdE

    Thanks a lot.

    Have to say, not too keen on the crocheted number.

  184. guytaur

    Confirmed Shelley wins Gold for Australia in the Narathon. Kenya got silver

  185. sprocket_

    I don’t recall Grandstanding Abbott or the compliant MSM mentioning any of this. Has the Lying Friar been withholding information from us?

    [Najib Razak
    1 hr ·
    MALAYSIA SECURES AGREEMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL POLICE DEPLOYMENT TO MH17 CRASH SITE

    Malaysia has secured an agreement with Ukrainian separatists, who control the area around the MH17 crash site, to allow a group of international police personnel to enter the area in order to provide protection for international crash investigators.

    Pursuant to the earlier agreement between Prime Minister Najib Razak and Alexander Borodai, leader of the separatist forces, Mr Borodai today agreed to allow a deployment of international police personnel to enter the crash site.

    Prime Minister Najib has today spoken to the prime ministers of the Netherlands and Australia, and the three grieving countries have agreed to work closely together in deploying police personnel.

    68 Malaysian police personnel will leave Kuala Lumpur for the crash site on Wednesday as part of the international deployment.

    Under the original three point agreement brokered between Prime Minister Najib and Mr Borodai last week, the Ukrainian separatists agreed to:

    transfer the black boxes to Malaysia; handover the human remains to international officials;
    and grant full access to the crash site for international investigators.

    So far, international air crash investigators have been unable to properly deploy across the vast crash site in eastern Ukraine and collect evidence due to ongoing security concerns, including continued military activity. Malaysia calls for an immediate cessation of all military activities in and around the crash site.

    Malaysia is concerned that these security concerns are preventing full and unfettered access to the site, and therefore a proper, independent investigation from being carried out. Moreover, Malaysia is particularly concerned that some human remains may still be at the crash site.

    Malaysian officials are discussing the details of the police deployment with the Netherlands and Australia. Malaysian Foreign Minister, Anifah Aman, has been speaking to his international counterparts and officials from the Ukrainian government on the legal and diplomatic framework for the deployment.

    Malaysian Transport Minister, Liow Tiong Lai, has been leading on the MH17 investigation, working closely with the head of the investigation in the Netherlands.

    Speaking earlier today, Prime Minister Najib Razak said:

    “I am deeply concerned that international investigators have been unable to properly deploy to the crash site because of the volatile security situation. It is imperative that we deploy a full team of investigators to ensure that all the human remains are removed from the site, identified and repatriated. Everyone who was on board MH17 must be afforded proper dignity and respect.

    “We also need a full deployment of investigators to have unfettered access to the crash site so we can understand precisely what happened to MH17. I hope that this agreement with Mr Borodai will ensure security on the ground, so the international investigators can conduct their work.

    “Three grieving nations have formed a coalition to secure the site. Through our joint deployment of police personnel, the Netherlands, Australia and Malaysia will work together to achieve justice for the victims]

    http://on.fb.me/1mRtnMX

  186. poroti

    sprocket_

    A comment from your link. Now how many of these boxes did Tony tick, any ?

    [Aisyah Jalil Stay professional PM. Salute! We cannot point fingers unless proven guilty to anybody, even tho everybody really want to blame someone right now. Emotional and anger and sadness aside, a leader should be professional and objective-driven at this really terrible times.. Thank you, DS.]

  187. guytaur

    “@profsarahj: Are Australians going? MT @BBCBreaking Dutch investigators not going to MH17 crash site in E Ukraine due to security concerns, acc to OSCE”

  188. sprocket_

    Poroti

    Yes, the comments by the Malaysians are very supportive of the achievements of the quiet diplomacy of their government. The OCSE have also been dealing direct with the rebels.

    The deal with the rebels may unravel however, as the Ukrainian government troops are now cranking up their attack with tanks of Donetsk and surrounds, trying to take advantage of Putin being temporarily on the back foot.

  189. Darren Laver

    In any case, MH17 is yesterday’s story.

    AH5017 is more recent.

  190. poroti

    From OSCE.

    [Dutch experts have cancelled plans to head to the site of the downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine, OSCE officials say.

    Fighting between pro-Russia separatists and government troops in the area has prevented access to the site, they add………despite a truce between Ukrainian troops and separatist forces. Fighting has continued just 60km (35 miles) away from the crash site near the town of Grabove. ]
    http://osce.einnews.com/article/215752965/fPhPM7mEFJY9tHCP

  191. guytaur

    @AlboMP: Proud to receive an award from Justice for Cyprus tonight with Jack Passaris and Michael Christodoulou http://t.co/w1HKkhB39Z

  192. Bushfire Bill

    [@ABCFactCheck: Our interactive #promisetracker is now live. See the promises the Govt has kept, broken and everything in between http://t.co/ONHRXss7dW ]

    I heard that presentation on ABC TV News tonight.

    The verdict was that Abbott had kept more promises than he had broken.

    which doesn’t, of course, account for the things he never said, but did (or tried to do) and the over-arching promise of “No excuses. No Surprises”.

    I was disappointed that the ABC did *not* mention, as a promise broken, cuts to funding of the ABC.

    But then, that’s the world we live in: the ABC trying overtime to be “balanced” and the government not giving a shit that they do.

  193. Dee

    Humanitarian ceasefire over?

    What astounds me is that Israels intelligence service, Mossad is considered the most efficient and brutal in the world.

    Why then, are they so incapable of tracking down what is considered a primitive organization, Hamas?

    And by primitive, I mean they don’t have the resources, the technology at their disposal.

  194. shellbell

    Justice for Cyprus is an anti-Turkish body.

  195. guytaur

    “@RANews: BREAKING: Aust police who were planning to head to the crash site of Malaysian flight #MH17 have scrapped their trip over security concerns”

    “@GrogsGamut: Excellent effort, @JessTrengove has third wrapped up in the marathon #commgames”

    Jack will be happy.

  196. Tricot

    It’s hard to work out the ABC’s game in the promises broken/kept scoreboard.

    Apart from conflating number and impact as if being somehow equal it is interesting to note that of the 12 so-say “delivered” promises 6 are of the “establish an inquiry”, “hold a commission”, “initiate a review” “establish a council” and “move a government department” type. In other words, nothing more than easy, paper-shuffling exercises.

    Apart from these 6 there are policies which deliver relatively small sums of assistance to limited areas of the electorate (2 or 3) while the carbon tax repeal has been noted as delivered – but not much comment about its hacked outcome.

    Of the two remaining delivered one was touch and go through the senate and the other is of not much consequence.

    Really not much to show for nearly a year in office I would have thought, when it is supposedly the first year of government that the tough policies are initiated.

    It shows in fact, a rather do-no-much poor government.

    The question should be, why only 12?

  197. Dee

    [Justice for Cyprus is an anti-Turkish body.]

    Justice for Cyprus is anti-Turkish occupation of Cyprus.

  198. Centre

    So all the unemployed will need to work for the dole?

    Great news…I’m sure the Greens will be ecstatic. They can all plant trees which will mitigate global warming – when it actually starts.

  199. zoomster

    The ‘broken promises’ thing also ignores the difference between perception and policy.

    To use, for example, my bete noir Sophie Mirabella.

    As Shadow Industry minister, she put out a stream of media releases about Labor cuts to the car industry.

    Reading them, any reasonable person would infer that she intended to not only reverse Labor’s cuts but to increase funding.

    Meanwhile, the Liberal stated policy was to make more cuts to the industry than Labor had.

    An ordinary person, however, reading/listening to Mirabella would have a different perception.

    Of course, it was the media’s job to point out these disconnects….

  200. rossmcg

    Centre

    Watch the Tory spivs come out of the woodwork to run work for the dole programs. They will dream up meaningless work and charge a fat fee for organising the jobs.

  201. Centre

    Absolutely beautiful winter’s day here in Sydney.

    It appears as if climate change is just taking a breather and ready to resume proper activity in a century or two I’m sure.

  202. sprocket_

    [@PierreCrom: Black smoke above the #MH17 crash site. Ukrainian and rebels tanks on the site]

    What could go wrong sending in unarmed AFP personnel?
    This is a war zone where the niceties of the UN and agreements with whoever are not worth a cracker.

  203. Darren Laver

    [What could go wrong sending in unarmed AFP personnel?
    This is a war zone where the niceties of the UN and agreements with whoever are not worth a cracker.]

    ABC said you just need a “fixer” and it is easy as to get to the site!

  204. Tricot

    Surely to goodness now the waste of time, money and effort to send all those personnel overseas to aid MH17 for nothing, and merely to support Abbott’s puff up ego, must be sheeted home to him are a total overplay of his hand.

    Apart from the fact it was unlikely any “foreign” (armed or unarmed) uniformed police would be allowed to act as a quasi-guard by anyone, the risk to the lives of these personnel was something which could not be supported.

    I see from BBC, the Dutch have cancelled any attempts to put their personnel on the ground as the fighting is too close.

    When will Abbott “bring the troops/police home”? What is the number now 100, 150 more?

  205. Centre

    rossmcg

    I believe people should be earning or learning. I’m against work for the dole in principle because if the work is legitimate – somebody is getting a freebie.

    Work for the dole? Pay them the minimum wage and all sweet. If not, the job fails to exist 😯

    Of course, good for the monkey to win a few votes – that is all!

  206. absolutetwaddle

    Centre

    We get it, you’re a climate skeptic in the fine tradition of Tony Abbott, Nick Minchin and The Tea Party. Congratulations and everything, but you don’t need to go around dropping lame little hints to this effect, we get it.

  207. Centre

    twaddle

    Have a look at the weather? If we don’t get a scorcher of a spring and summer, I’m switching 😈

  208. sprocket_

    [@PierreCrom: Mission to #MH17 site cancelled for today. Dutch military police now in meeting in Donetsk. Heavy armed Pro Russian soldiers outside hotel]

    So who does Abbott blame in his presser tomorrow?

    The rebels? The Ukrainians? Putin? The Dutch?

  209. Yesiree Bob

    Only a total idiot, in this day and age, would be a AGW Sceptic.

  210. Tricot

    And to make matters worse, the difference between what one offered on one news site and another continues.

    Earlier in the AFP categorically stated armed personnel would go into the MH17 crash zone. This was totally at odds with ABC news of unarmed personnel going in. This was maybe 3 hours ago.

    Now we have BBC stating quite categorically that the Dutch have cancelled any attempt to get to the crash site due to the deteriorating war zone situation. The BBC points out that the move to get personnel in is ‘Dutch led’.

    Meanwhile good old ABC, has noted that the insertion of the personnel has merely been “delayed”…

    Who can believe anything these days?

  211. sprocket_

    [761
    Yesiree Bob
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 9:17 pm | PERMALINK
    Only a total idiot, in this day and age, would be a AGW Sceptic.]

    Tony Abbott is an AGW sceptic QED

  212. poroti

    sprocket_

    I think we can blame the Ukraine army. They chose to attack just as the investigators were about to go in. Till now the crash site had been free of fighting.

    Donetsk is under heavy attack from the army at the mo so I dare say “heavily armed pro Russian soldiers ” would be thick on the ground in the city.

  213. BK

    [When will Abbott “bring the troops/police home”? What is the number now 100, 150 more?]
    Abbott could have a full parade down Pitt Street and take the salute.

  214. Yesiree Bob

    sprocket_@763


    761
    Yesiree Bob
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 9:17 pm | PERMALINK
    Only a total idiot, in this day and age, would be a AGW Sceptic.


    Tony Abbott is an AGW sceptic QED

    Indeed, as is Andrew Blot, nuff said.

  215. BK

    [So who does Abbott blame in his presser tomorrow?

    The rebels? The Ukrainians? Putin? The Dutch?]
    His own over-reach perhaps?

  216. confessions

    [Abbott could have a full parade down Pitt Street and take the salute.]

    A Mardi Gras float!

    You read it here first. 😀

  217. BK

    When Newspoll comes out we can calculate the cost per percentage point change.

  218. Dee

    [In a second statement on Saturday, Russia’s Foreign Ministry said Washington shared responsibility for the crisis.
    “The United States continues to push Kiev into the forceful repression of Ukraine’s Russian-speaking population’s discontent. There is one conclusion – the Obama administration has some responsibility both for the internal conflict in Ukraine and its severe consequences,” the ministry said.

    “Judging by the relentless slander campaign against Russia, organised by the American administration, they increasingly rely on sheer lies while conducting foreign policy,” it said, citing comments by White House spokesman Josh Earnest on Friday that President Vladimir Putin was “culpable”.

    The ministry also said Washington had to answer questions posed by Russia’s Defence Ministry over the crash. On Monday, the Defence Ministry challenged the United States to produce satellite images to back its assertions that the pro-Russian separatists were to blame for downing the plane.]

  219. poroti

    Tricot

    The AFP boss this morning’s presser categorically said they would be unarmed.

    The OSCE site I linked a little while back conformed the cancellation . Something changed quickly as 15 minutes before the bulletin about the cancellation they had another bulletin announcing that the Dutch were about to go.

  220. Centre

    [A Mardi Gras float!]

    In budgie smugglers. Well on a good global warming day 😀

  221. briefly

    [763
    sprocket_

    761
    Yesiree Bob
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 9:17 pm | PERMALINK
    Only a total idiot, in this day and age, would be a AGW Sceptic.

    Tony Abbott is an AGW sceptic QED]

    The use of the term “sceptic” is fraudulent. They are climate change cynics, dissemblers prepared to distort theory, facts and critical reason in order to make personal gains.

  222. pedant

    There was some talk here earlier of funerals of MH17 victims, and also of Mr Abbott as, in some sense, the national chief mourner.

    If I had been on that plane, the one thing of which I could be certain is that if Mr Abbott tried to invite himself to my funeral, my relatives would make damn sure that he was uninvited straight away.

  223. briefly

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENgL1sMs6hE

    I’ve been taking refuge in these sonatas for violin and piano, performed by Menuhin and Kempff.

  224. BK

    pedant
    That is a good point.

  225. briefly

    [774
    pedant

    There was some talk here earlier of funerals of MH17 victims, and also of Mr Abbott as, in some sense, the national chief mourner.

    If I had been on that plane, the one thing of which I could be certain is that if Mr Abbott tried to invite himself to my funeral, my relatives would make damn sure that he was uninvited straight away.]

    Abbott, the essence of partisan baiting and rancour, is now showing he is capable of gate-crashing the bereaved. He is a disgraceful imposter, abjectly unfit for the office he holds.

  226. confessions

    [Russian research satellite Foton-M4 was launched last Saturday (19 July) with a precious cargo of five geckos, insects and plants on board.

    The orbiting geckos were expected to mate, allowing scientists from Russia’s Institute of Medico-Biological Problems to determine the effects of weightlessness on reptile reproduction.

    But the research stalled when scientists reported on Thursday that their gecko sex satellite had gone AWOL and was not responding to commands. ]
    http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20142607-25927-2.html

    Um.

    What?

  227. poroti

    pedant

    If there was to be a “national chief mourner” the person for the job should be the GG. An apolitical person whose office represents all.

  228. confessions

    [If I had been on that plane, the one thing of which I could be certain is that if Mr Abbott tried to invite himself to my funeral, my relatives would make damn sure that he was uninvited straight away.]

    Exactly. The ensuing media circus would be enough to turn me off having him there, regardless of what I thought of the man and his behaviour over the years.

  229. Darren Laver

    There’s no point worrying about who might come to your funeral — by definition, you will be dead!

  230. Centre

    Are we expecting a Newspoll tonight?

  231. confessions

    [There’s no point worrying about who might come to your funeral — by definition, you will be dead!]

    A funeral isn’t for the person who’s dead – they’re dead. It’s for the people left behind.

  232. Laocoon

    Tricot from a ways back
    [The West had a sick-making editorial on the Tuesday of last week I think it was, telling us just how good our Great Leader is, and then on Wednesday a huge page one spread of Julie Bishop hailed a “Woman of Steel”. Equally sick-making.]
    That Wednesday front cover of The West was indeed truly a complete shocker

  233. pedant

    briefly @ 777: Well, it hasn’t quite got to that point yet, and I doubt that it will, since the protocol people would have a role to play, and politicians won’t even go into a shopping mall during an election campaign without ensuring that potential critics have been cleared out.

    When military personnel die in the line of duty, I guess having political leaders joining in the mourning is part of the deal, and families seem generally to accept it. But in cases like this, of death by frightful misadventure, I would have thought that sympathy would best be conveyed by a letter.

  234. Darren Laver

    [Are we expecting a Newspoll tonight?]

    My understanding is that Shannahan has asked them go out in the field again to get a sample “that better reflects the electorate’s goodwill towards Mr Abbott’s management of the MH17 crisis”. First sample apparently didn’t do this enough.

    As a result, I am expecting 51-49 to Labor, and improved figures for Abbott.

  235. pedant

    I must also admit, on reflection, that I have a brother who would be perfectly happy to have Mr Abbott in the congregation at my funeral, since that would give him a unique opportunity in a eulogy to skewer Mr Abbott publicly, without the latter being able to run away.

  236. zoidlord

    Meanwhile…

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/poll-17-would-consider-leaving-scotland-after-yes-vote.1406457133

    “When undecided voters are excluded, the Yes vote stands at 46% and No support is at 54%.”

  237. Darren Laver

    [I must also admit, on reflection, that I have a brother who would be perfectly happy to have Mr Abbott in the congregation at my funeral, since that would give him a unique opportunity in a eulogy to skewer Mr Abbott publicly, without the latter being able to run away.]

    Would be a plucky move on his part!

  238. Yesiree Bob

    Darren Laver@786


    My understanding is that Shannahan has asked them go out in the field again to get a sample “that better reflects the electorate’s goodwill towards Mr Abbott’s management of the MH17 crisis”..

    it’s a pretty big ask to expect the electorate to show goodwill towards Abbott, isn’t it ?

  239. pedant

    Darren Laver @786: Are you serious about that – as in do you have any evidence to support that proposition – or are you just enjoying a bit of leg-pulling on a Sunday night?

  240. pedant

    Darren Laver @ 789: As a hater, my brother leaves Mr Abbott for dead.

  241. Darren Laver

    [Darren Laver @786: Are you serious about that – as in do you have any evidence to support that proposition – or are you just enjoying a bit of leg-pulling on a Sunday nigh]

    Like the Age, I am not going to give over the tapes! 😉

    You will have to take my word for it.

  242. imacca

    Noticed on ABC tonight that the, “apply for 40 jobs per month” thing has been mentioned.

    So, does anyone know where this idiot idea actually came from?? If they want to lose the business receptionist demographic i’d say this is the way to do it.

    And once businesses put up “no entry to jobseekers” signs on their doors (so that they can actually get something done rather than spending half the day signing off peoples activity diaries) then how do people who are only getting the dole 6 months of the year (so they cant afford phones) actually apply for more than 1 job per day??

    And what about when businesses get the sh$ts on and simply stop responding to all the inquiries and people cant get their activity records validated? Or they start telling Centerlink to naff off when they try and check up on peoples claims??

    Did they just pull the number 40 out of their arses or is their some justification??

  243. lizzie

    ABC headlines that govt has kept more promises than it has broken. 2 kept and 1 broken and a dozen still unknown? Headline bias if ever I saw it.

  244. Centre

    Darren L

    How do you know Shanahan has requested another poll?

    I’d be forecasting 52/48 with increased approval and preferred PM for Abbott.

  245. Rex Douglas

    lizzie

    That was one of the most ludicrous stories I’ve ever seen on the ABC.

  246. Darren Laver

    How long before ABC asks Abbott:

    [Mr Abbott, your campaign has the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?]

  247. pedant

    If all that can be said for the government is that it’s kept more promises than it’s broken, that sounds a bit like your dog winning the medal for second best bitch in the show.

  248. Yesiree Bob

    imacca@795

    Did they just pull the number 40 out of their arses or is their some justification??

    Probably

  249. mikehilliard

    [So, does anyone know where this idiot idea actually came from??]

    Only someone who has little or no idea of running a business could have dreamt up the 40 applications a week idea. Politicians live in a bubble.

  250. guytaur

    “@ABCNews24: .@StephenMcDonell: The entire situation has dramatically changed over recent hours. There’s a major offensive on now from Kiev Govt troops.”

  251. Fran Barlow

    Imacca

    [And once businesses put up “no entry to jobseekers” signs on their doors (so that they can actually get something done rather than spending half the day signing off peoples activity diaries) then how do people who are only getting the dole 6 months of the year (so they cant afford phones) actually apply for more than 1 job per day??]

    In the 1980s this would have been a huge ask, but these days with email and word processing you can ‘apply’ for half a dozen in about 30 minutes at your local library. My elder son, who was keen to move out of being a chef and into being an electrical apprentice sent applications to 123 employers he turned up in research over the course of 3 weeks and thereafter followed up each with a phone call.

    Few returned his calls, but had he been doing a work test he’d have passed easily. Sadly, his efforts to get a job as an electrical apprentice and his offers to work at a very basic wage were 100% a waste of his time, which is the real problem with the model.

    It’s really about demonising the unemployed in much the way that the regime demonises asylum seekers. It’s just cheap political grandstanding with ruling class malice thrown in.

  252. mikehilliard

    Hey Tony, just as well we didn’t rush in.

  253. gloryconsequence

    Newspoll will report a big shift. I predict 50-50, Abbott’s dissatisfaction down and level on PPM.

  254. lizzie

    Rex D

    Never thought we’d agree on anything but I saw Baron and the report/headline is ludicrous.

  255. confessions

    Where are people getting these reports of the AFP pulling out of MH17 crash site from?

    I thought it was only announced this afternoon that AFP officers would be sent there. How can they be pulling out only hours after this announcement?

  256. Rex Douglas

    lizzie

    I’m sorry if agreeing with me makes you uncomfortable.

  257. sprocket_

    Just listened to ABC’s Steven McDonnell who is in Donetsk. He says a major deterioration with Ukrainian troops trying to recapture land held by the rebels. No AFP or crash investigators going in to area while this is happening.

    It would appear the Ukrainian government has led the international community up the garden path? Or maybe they see a quick win.

  258. mikehilliard

    Seriously, I think it was mean’t to be 40 applications a year.

    Flooding employers with applications from people not interested in the position on offer but compelled to apply only compromises those who really want the job.

  259. guytaur

    Good watermark by the Guardian on its footage of Asylum Seekers arriving at the Cocos Island.

  260. Darren Laver

    [Where are people getting these reports of the AFP pulling out of MH17 crash site from?
    I thought it was only announced this afternoon that AFP officers would be sent there. How can they be pulling out only hours after this announcement?]

    Whatever it is, the ABC will be able to reassure us that Mr Abbott has kept more MH17 promises than he has broken.

  261. nappin

    Good question fess. Fairfax is reporting that AFP officers are already at the crash site.

  262. Rex Douglas

    guytaur
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 10:13 pm | PERMALINK
    Good watermark by the Guardian on its footage of Asylum Seekers arriving at the Cocos Island.

    They looked more like POW’s.

  263. slothy

    [Dutch experts have cancelled plans to head to the site of the downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine, OSCE officials say.]

    Ah, those European surrender monkeys. Looks like Generalissimo Abbott *VC will have to put some steel into their backbones by ordering the AFP and SAS to run the insurgents not only off the crash site, but all the way to Moscow. Putin is no doubt already soiling his pants at the prospect.

    * Vainglorious Crackpot

  264. lizzie

    Rex D

    Not at all. I like agreeing with people!!

  265. guytaur

    A lot of news tonight

    @GuardianAus: Disclose all contact with unions to royal commission, federal departments told http://t.co/YjBzt0jXlT

  266. Darren Laver

    [812
    guytaur
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 10:13 pm | PERMALINK
    Good watermark by the Guardian on its footage of Asylum Seekers arriving at the Cocos Island.
    ]

    The Guardian has no business on the Cocos (Keeling) Islands. They should have the good grace to give these people some privacy while they are processed.

    This is just “misery porn” — apparently MH17 wasn’t enough for these ghouls.

  267. guytaur

    Rex

    I agree with your assessment on the AS from what the Guardian managed to capture in difficult circumstances.

  268. guytaur

    DL

    I get where you are coming from and would normally agree. However the misery porn may just work for the good of the AS themselves this time and is in the public interest as it stops Abbott’s mob saying what AS on Australian Soil?

  269. confessions

    nappin:

    I’m sensing the usual twitter scuttlebutt that some people get unwittingly caught up in.

  270. Darren Laver

    [and is in the public interest as it stops Abbott’s mob saying what AS on Australian Soil?]

    I am not sure what this means.

  271. lizzie

    Kezza
    If you’re around. You’re a feisty bitch, not a cowering mongrel. Is that OK? 🙂

  272. guytaur

    DL

    It is in the public interest to break the secrecy of Abbott to keep facts from the public they have a right to know,

  273. zoidlord

    A Labor policy working?

    Wonder if Libs will claim as their own?

    Retweeted by Graeme Innes
    Fiona Anderson ‏@NDISQld 4h

    #NDIS to generate 13,000 new jobs in Qld. Premier Newman says “disability sector creating the jobs of the future” http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2014/7/27/13000-new-disability-sector-jobs-in-queensland

  274. Bushfire Bill

    From the Daily Telegraph:

    [Aussie bid to reach MH17 stalls
    HOPES Australian police would be deployed to the MH17 crash site are on ice again tonight after the mission leaders said it was too dangerous.]

    Couldn’t they just shoot their way in, grab the bodies and then be helivacked to a waiting RAAF C-17, thence to the nearest “Bring Them Home” military node in time for tomorrow’s “We are lucky to have Tony Abbott as our Prime Minister” (by Simon Benson) headlines?

  275. rossmcg

    Guytaur

    As far as Morrison is concerned the asylum seekers are POWs. Prisoners taken in the war on people smugglers.

  276. Darren Laver

    The media of course also has an ethical duty to not pay too much attention to the these recent arrivals, lest their MO be shared in the region and encourage more boats, which is in no-one’s interests, except maybe lawyers’.

  277. guytaur

    DL

    That may apply to instructions received from Sauron for some. Not for the rest. They report facts and let the chips fall where they may.

    Most complaints about MSM here are when they do not do that,

  278. confessions

    [ HOPES Australian police would be deployed to the MH17 crash site are on ice again tonight after the mission leaders said it was too dangerous.]

    Okay, so maybe it’s an evolving story.

    But how can this be only hours after ABbott uses yet another staged media appearance to inform Australians that we’d be sending AFP officers to the site?

    Wasn’t the necessary ground work done wrt the dangers of the mission before making an announcement?

    What is going on?

  279. Just Me

    [783
    confessions

    >There’s no point worrying about who might come to your funeral — by definition, you will be dead!

    A funeral isn’t for the person who’s dead – they’re dead. It’s for the people left behind.]

    The dead don’t need reminding.

  280. zoomster

    As I’ve said before, if they bring in a 40 jobs a month requirement, I’ll be actively encouraging anyone in that position to apply for jobs at MPs electorate offices.

  281. Rex Douglas

    confessions #832

    The Govts carrier pidgeons have a long way to travel.

  282. Darn

    [gloryconsequence
    Posted Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 10:09 pm | PERMALINK
    Newspoll will report a big shift. I predict 50-50, Abbott’s dissatisfaction down and level on PPM.
    ]

    It seems we can always depend on you Glory to put the worst possible slant on everything. What are you predicting for the polls after all this blows over and Abbott has to get back to the real world of trying to get his despised budget through the senate.

  283. guytaur

    “@GhostWhoVotes: #Galaxy Poll 2 Party Preferred: L/NP 48 (+1) ALP 52 (-1) #auspol”

  284. Pegasus

    Centre
    [So all the unemployed will need to work for the dole?

    Great news…I’m sure the Greens will be ecstatic.]
    Reported in the msm no less.

    The Greens Party support evidence-based policies.

    [The Greens has condemned plans by the federal government to force all jobseekers to work for the dole, saying there’s nothing to prove it’s effective.

    Greens family and community spokeswoman Rachel Siewert says in a statement today the tough new rules fail to address barriers to employment such as lack of available jobs and training or discrimination.

    Ms Siewert says the announcement is all about punishing people and that it’s nonsense to say people have to apply for at least a job a day if jobs aren’t available.]

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greens-blast-work-for-dole-for-jobseekers-20140727-zxdc3.html#ixzz38fhzK900

    Siewert’s media release: http://rachel-siewert.greensmps.org.au/content/media-releases/work-dole-expansion-continues-governments-attack-job-seekers

  285. Fulvio Sammut

    Margin of error? 🙂

  286. pedant

    To be blunt, Mr Abbott needed MH17 to have been brought down by Al Qaeda or one of its affiliates to get enduring political benefit. What happened is a complete tragedy, but one which really can’t be made to resonate with any of the more enduring recent themes of Australian politics.

  287. Fran Barlow

    DL

    [The media of course also has an ethical duty to not pay too much attention to the these recent arrivals, lest their MO be shared in the region and encourage more boats, which is in no-one’s interests, except maybe lawyers’.]

    This is a bizarre claim on a number of grounds.

    1. It’s not an ethical duty of the media to become part of the existing regime’s policy narrative — well not in a country said to have n accountable government. If the media can be said to have an ethical duty at all, then that duty lies in offering accurate, intellectually rigorous reports on matters that people might want to consider when forming views about the integrity and conduct of government.

    2. During the last regime, IMAs were front page news, accompanied by hectoring editorials. Plainly, this ethical duty you posit, if it existed at all, was ignored. Perhaps they thought it was the opposite then.

    3. I disagree with you that ‘boats’ are in nobody’s interest apart from lawyers’. Plainly, in the opinion of asylum seekers, they serve their interests. This is not the result of some silly poll, but a vote by people willing to risk death and worse at the hands of Australia, and it seems willing to pay for the risk trade. You can’t argue that their calculus is wrong because you don’t and can ‘t know their circumstances.

    I’m also not aware that lawyers do all that well financially out of asylum seekers. As I understand it, much of the work is pro bono. Doubtless, many are giving up more lucrative work to do this, because they believe in the issue. If you have figures that could show the contrary, you should adduce them.

  288. slothy

    confessions @ 832

    [But how can this be only hours after ABbott uses yet another staged media appearance to inform Australians that we’d be sending AFP officers to the site?

    Wasn’t the necessary ground work done wrt the dangers of the mission before making an announcement?]

    Very good question. At 7am this morning breakfast TV was showing footage of many civilians fleeing Donetsk because the Ukrainian army had fought its way to the outskirts of the city. That was more than 15 hours ago. The offensive would have begun perhaps 24 hours ago

  289. bug1

    If he cant get AFP in there, Abbott should threaten to send Crocodile Dundee in to get the remains of MH17.
    Im sure his mate Rupert has some contacts over there to sell the story.

  290. Puff, the Magic Dragon.

    very tired tonight, I just drove from Lizzie’s place to
    warnabool and we are staying at a dog friendly B and B for the night. It was a long drive so I am saying nite dint let the bedbugs bite.\\