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	<title>Comments on: Can hyperbole and hate-mongering be &#8220;balanced&#8221;?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/</link>
	<description>Just another Crikey Blogs weblog</description>
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		<title>By: GavinM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8909</link>
		<dc:creator>GavinM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8909</guid>
		<description>&quot;And yes, inciting violence towards individual people matters much more to me than sabotage of inanimate objects even where the protesters put their own lives at risk.&quot;

The problem with that confessions is that they aren&#039;t just putting their own lives at risk, they are also potentially putting the lives of workers at risk too. 

When someone like a Tim Flannery, says words like &quot;I have considered those sort of actions, but there’s probably a lot of young people who’ve got a lot more at stake than I have who are gonna get angrier over time and who are gonna demand action, and they’re probably the ones who are gonna carry the day in that area...&quot;, and calling for them not to be prosecuted for their actions, it is likely to act as a green light to extremists who believe the end justifies the means in achieving their aims, thats why we get incidents such as the death threat received by the boss at Hazelwood.

&quot;Just on that, where were the outcries from the pro-lifers when Devine published her nasty little piece?&quot;

I&#039;m not a pro-lifer, but I missed the Devine piece -- I don&#039;t suppose you have a link ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And yes, inciting violence towards individual people matters much more to me than sabotage of inanimate objects even where the protesters put their own lives at risk.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem with that confessions is that they aren&#8217;t just putting their own lives at risk, they are also potentially putting the lives of workers at risk too. </p>
<p>When someone like a Tim Flannery, says words like &#8220;I have considered those sort of actions, but there’s probably a lot of young people who’ve got a lot more at stake than I have who are gonna get angrier over time and who are gonna demand action, and they’re probably the ones who are gonna carry the day in that area&#8230;&#8221;, and calling for them not to be prosecuted for their actions, it is likely to act as a green light to extremists who believe the end justifies the means in achieving their aims, thats why we get incidents such as the death threat received by the boss at Hazelwood.</p>
<p>&#8220;Just on that, where were the outcries from the pro-lifers when Devine published her nasty little piece?&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a pro-lifer, but I missed the Devine piece &#8212; I don&#8217;t suppose you have a link ?</p>
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		<title>By: bpobjie</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8908</link>
		<dc:creator>bpobjie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8908</guid>
		<description>&quot;So, the position of the Press Council appears to be that a column they acknowledge as dogmatic, confrontational and offensive to many readers is acceptable&quot;

I don&#039;t have a problem with that, if that&#039;s all it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So, the position of the Press Council appears to be that a column they acknowledge as dogmatic, confrontational and offensive to many readers is acceptable&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have a problem with that, if that&#8217;s all it is.</p>
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		<title>By: confessions</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8902</link>
		<dc:creator>confessions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8902</guid>
		<description>GavinM: whether or not you ascribe acts of sabotage to &#039;direct action&#039; is irrelevent: Tony JOnes specifically describes the protest action of Jim Hanson and the &quot;actress&quot; and refers to it as direct action, asking flannery if he himself would ever engage in it.  It is pretty clear to me that neither are advocating sabotage or destruction of property, whereas devine OTOH openly states that &quot;greenies, not arsonist should be hanging from lamp posts.&quot;  And yes, inciting violence towards individual &lt;i&gt;people&lt;/i&gt; matters much more to me than sabotage of inanimate objects even where the protesters put their own lives at risk.

Just on that, where were the outcries from the &lt;i&gt;pro-lifers&lt;/i&gt; when Devine published her nasty little piece?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GavinM: whether or not you ascribe acts of sabotage to &#8216;direct action&#8217; is irrelevent: Tony JOnes specifically describes the protest action of Jim Hanson and the &#8220;actress&#8221; and refers to it as direct action, asking flannery if he himself would ever engage in it.  It is pretty clear to me that neither are advocating sabotage or destruction of property, whereas devine OTOH openly states that &#8220;greenies, not arsonist should be hanging from lamp posts.&#8221;  And yes, inciting violence towards individual <i>people</i> matters much more to me than sabotage of inanimate objects even where the protesters put their own lives at risk.</p>
<p>Just on that, where were the outcries from the <i>pro-lifers</i> when Devine published her nasty little piece?</p>
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		<title>By: GavinM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8899</link>
		<dc:creator>GavinM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8899</guid>
		<description>Hello Bertus,

I was referring to the protestors that have chained themselves to the machinery at numerous power stations both here and overseas and the subsequent actions that have been taken to remove them.

Also, there is the matter of the death threat that was received by the CEO of Hazelwood -- I&#039;d say that&#039;s a fairly violent action too.

confessions, acknowledging the lunacy of Devine&#039;s article -- it&#039;s only the degree of violence being incited that concerns you ?

And &#039;direct action&#039; against a specified target is usually more than standing around outside the gates holding banners and chanting slogans -- as I said above, protestors have placed themselves and workers in danger by chaining themselves to machinery and forcing plants to close down until they were removed...Who knows what the next stunt might be -- we&#039;ve now seen a death threat, so what&#039;s next ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Bertus,</p>
<p>I was referring to the protestors that have chained themselves to the machinery at numerous power stations both here and overseas and the subsequent actions that have been taken to remove them.</p>
<p>Also, there is the matter of the death threat that was received by the CEO of Hazelwood &#8212; I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s a fairly violent action too.</p>
<p>confessions, acknowledging the lunacy of Devine&#8217;s article &#8212; it&#8217;s only the degree of violence being incited that concerns you ?</p>
<p>And &#8216;direct action&#8217; against a specified target is usually more than standing around outside the gates holding banners and chanting slogans &#8212; as I said above, protestors have placed themselves and workers in danger by chaining themselves to machinery and forcing plants to close down until they were removed&#8230;Who knows what the next stunt might be &#8212; we&#8217;ve now seen a death threat, so what&#8217;s next ?</p>
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		<title>By: bertus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8897</link>
		<dc:creator>bertus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8897</guid>
		<description>Call this irrelevant if you want, but having lived not that far from Hazelwood for a while, I&#039;m wondering how you would threaten a coal-fired power station with violence, without having access to a military armoured division. 

Facetiousness aside, I have to admit that was a VERY soft interview with Flannery last night. Regular love-in it was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call this irrelevant if you want, but having lived not that far from Hazelwood for a while, I&#8217;m wondering how you would threaten a coal-fired power station with violence, without having access to a military armoured division. </p>
<p>Facetiousness aside, I have to admit that was a VERY soft interview with Flannery last night. Regular love-in it was.</p>
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		<title>By: confessions</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8894</link>
		<dc:creator>confessions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8894</guid>
		<description>GavinM: consider what devine writes about greenies, not arsonists to blame for the bushfires; her statement that greenies, not arsonists should be hanging from lamp posts.  All Flannery has said is in response to Jones question about whether he&#039;s considered direct action, ie protesting outside a coal-fired power station to which he basically says no, but acknowledges that younger people with more at stake probably would. JOnes question does not ask about sabotage or attacking inanimate objects. Devine talks about hanging &lt;i&gt;people&lt;/i&gt; from lampposts.

a big difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GavinM: consider what devine writes about greenies, not arsonists to blame for the bushfires; her statement that greenies, not arsonists should be hanging from lamp posts.  All Flannery has said is in response to Jones question about whether he&#8217;s considered direct action, ie protesting outside a coal-fired power station to which he basically says no, but acknowledges that younger people with more at stake probably would. JOnes question does not ask about sabotage or attacking inanimate objects. Devine talks about hanging <i>people</i> from lampposts.</p>
<p>a big difference.</p>
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		<title>By: GavinM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8891</link>
		<dc:creator>GavinM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8891</guid>
		<description>Oops, I probably should have posted that comment in the open thread - I was actually meaning it to be a genuine question, not trolling to distract from this argument...

First time I&#039;ve ever been called a troll though, thanks Zoot :P

I&#039;m not so sure confessions, they seem to be encouraging people to take direct action against power stations to me, and that equals incitement in my definition. Especially given that in the past such direct action has resulted in shutting down parts of a plant whilst protestors have had to be physically removed, and when protestors refuse to voluntarily leave a premises, violence, wether initiated by police or by the protestors nearly always follows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I probably should have posted that comment in the open thread &#8211; I was actually meaning it to be a genuine question, not trolling to distract from this argument&#8230;</p>
<p>First time I&#8217;ve ever been called a troll though, thanks Zoot <img src='http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/wp-content/mu-plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-raspberry.png' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sure confessions, they seem to be encouraging people to take direct action against power stations to me, and that equals incitement in my definition. Especially given that in the past such direct action has resulted in shutting down parts of a plant whilst protestors have had to be physically removed, and when protestors refuse to voluntarily leave a premises, violence, wether initiated by police or by the protestors nearly always follows.</p>
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		<title>By: confessions</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8886</link>
		<dc:creator>confessions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8886</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So is this interview incitement to violence ?&lt;/i&gt;

no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So is this interview incitement to violence ?</i></p>
<p>no.</p>
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		<title>By: zoot</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8882</link>
		<dc:creator>zoot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8882</guid>
		<description>GavinM @11, please see confessions @9.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GavinM @11, please see confessions @9.</p>
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		<title>By: monkeywrench</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2009/06/30/can-hyperbole-and-hate-mongering-can-be-balanced/comment-page-1/#comment-8880</link>
		<dc:creator>monkeywrench</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/?p=2324#comment-8880</guid>
		<description>It is a foolish person that apportions blame for a situation like the Black Saturday fires purely on the dictates of their own prejudices. I would suggest the various reasons for the disaster will come out of the Royal Commission in due time; but it&#039;s worth noting, Baldrick, that the fires started on private land and propagated most quickly over land that was not subject to any restrictions. If you have the nous, go on Google Earth and follow the fire&#039;s track from Kilmore to Kinglake and Murrundindi. Very &lt;em&gt;very&lt;/em&gt; little forest in the hinterlands between these sites. But it would be unpatriotic to blame the farmers and pine-plantation owners, so Devine and Bolt go for their own weak-minded tub-thumping. Hardly a surprise that the Press Council piddle themselves rather than do anything sensible about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a foolish person that apportions blame for a situation like the Black Saturday fires purely on the dictates of their own prejudices. I would suggest the various reasons for the disaster will come out of the Royal Commission in due time; but it&#8217;s worth noting, Baldrick, that the fires started on private land and propagated most quickly over land that was not subject to any restrictions. If you have the nous, go on Google Earth and follow the fire&#8217;s track from Kilmore to Kinglake and Murrundindi. Very <em>very</em> little forest in the hinterlands between these sites. But it would be unpatriotic to blame the farmers and pine-plantation owners, so Devine and Bolt go for their own weak-minded tub-thumping. Hardly a surprise that the Press Council piddle themselves rather than do anything sensible about them.</p>
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