Weekend talk thread June 29
This is it, the very last Pure Poison open thread. I think that we’ve said everything that we wanted to about Pure Poison closing down already, but I’d like to take the opportunity once more to say thank you, Pure Poison was more than just Jeremy and I and we will miss all of your contributions, even if we won’t miss moderating them.
Please come and check out Something Wonky, and follow us on twitter, because although Pure Poison is going away, we certainly won’t be.
CNN Fail
http://boingboing.net/2012/06/28/the-hilarity-of-cnn-foxs-b.html
Any idea how Gillard explains putting up the doomed Anti-Refugee laws when she refused to put up Wilkie’s pokie laws on the grounds that it wouldn’t pass?
The Southbank Sook bemoans “a false measure of public support — the emails of GetUp-hyped click-to-complain armchair activists.”
As opposed to… his own ‘army’ of benighted Andy-hyped keyboard-thumping whiners?
Pure gold.
Stephen Mayne…
Sad day indeed.
Will you archive the site?
Contemplating life without Pure Poison (thanks once again Dave and Jeremy) I am compelled to note how disappointing a couple of recent efforts to introduce new models into online news and current affairs reporting have been.
Yes, I’m referring to you Global Mail and you The Conversation, how can you be so mind-bogglingly boring? (And, at the same time, offer very little in the way of alternative analysis?)
For those of us not into listening to podcasts, will there be an opportunity to engage with you guys?
Or are old people not welcome?
Cheers
Back in 2008, AB ‘noticed’ that the Italian soccer team was all white whereas the French team had a number of non white players.
Cut to 2012 and Italy is into the Euro Cup finals after two goals by Mario Balotelli.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/europes_changing_face/
Well, in addition to Something Wonky, we’ll still be on Twitter…
I’m not sure what’s actually happening to the Pure Poison blog itself. I suspect they’ll just close comments and leave it where it is. But maybe they’ll take out the drive from the hosting computer and chuck it on a bonfire.
I think we all individually know which one we’d choose.
Desperation. Pure and simple.
Of course she should have known it would never get up because the Coalition were sh!t-scared that the Malaysia deal might just work, delivering the ‘deterrence value’ that Nauru (it’s been said) has lost.
It’s a rotten deal but I’m not convinced it’s so much more rotten than dumping people in a Pacific sh!thole.
Nauru had no formal protections when Howard set it up, but he negotiated some. That, Hockey said in Parliament on Wed, is what swayed him to support Nauru.
As it happens, the Govt has negotiated such protections with Malaysia, such that UNHCR has expressed support for the deal. (Whether the protections promised with Malaysia are in any way credible is yet another question.)
As Richo says on this…
Incidentally, Mister Whatever-It-Take’s column is tellingly headlined: Try anything to stop boats.
Bonfire… Bonfire… Bonfi…… Whoops!
I miss you all already. So long, and thanks for the fish…
@SHV – bills get defeated in the Senate all the time and this is usually pretty certain in advance. Defeat on the floor of the House is another matter and Ms Gillard did not have the numbers in the House to get the Pokie reform through. I think she should have submitted the bill anyway as an indication of her good faith but she decided otherwise.
For yesterday’s Oakshott bill, she did have the numbers (and it wasn’t her bill), so she allowed it to be put to the House. Of course the Opposition’s negotiating tactic is to implement Opposition policy or we’ll block it, so the bill failed in the Senate. At least the Greens were sticking to their long-held principles, wrongly in this case, in my opinion. The Opposition in their hypocrisy has only recently decided you couldn’t send asylum seekers to countries that have not signed the Refugee Convention.
Aliar Jones, RHWombat et al
Well, I am afraid it won’t be the same without the regular subjection to your spite and vitriol, so how about one more spray for old times sake?
‣ John Howard, Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan are the greatest leaders of the English speaking world’s recent times.
‣ Healthcare and housing are not human ‘rights’.
‣ Julia Gillard misled the Australian public regarding a carbon tax.
‣ Ayn Rand was a visionary and one the great philosophers of modern times.
Marek, initially Something Wonky is just going to host our new podcast, and we don’t plan to turn it into a clone of Pure Poison, but we may end up adding different content to the site as time goes on. As Jeremy said, we’ll be on twitter, and we’re always up for a chat there.
Good memory, Thomas!.
Andrew may defend himself by pointing out that its only one black player.
Lets not also forget Germany’s current team is drawn from many different migrant groups.
Will Andrew comment?
Thanks for everything, guys. PP was the media watch Media Watch isn’t.
Are you able to talk about why Crikey axed PP but is keeping blogs on that are (IMO) more banal and less popular?
Farewell for now Dave, Jeremy, Angra, MOC, Jules, SHV, Jack, John and everyone else – even the garden trolls (like gnomes but they always seem to lean to the right).
For me no more posting on a weekend evening – typing onehanded on my IPad while holding a glass of red wine in the other…..
I am sure I will enjoy the podcast.
Well, in addition to Something Wonky, we’ll still be on Twitter…
Meh, twitter, no thanks, an illiterate’s Arsebook.
Howard, you’re really going out high on a heap of troll manure aren’t you?
@14: Once a troll, always a troll.
Thanks to everybody who contributed (contributed, so not you Howie) and good luck in the future.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I am just going outside and may be some time.
Notice Rupe is taking his ball and walking of the field in a huff in the UK?
“Rupert Murdoch appears to have turned his back on Britain following his humiliation over the phone-hacking scandal.
In an interview with the Fox Business channel on Thursday following New Corporation’s confirmation that it was splitting into two companies, entertainment and publishing, Murdoch said he would be “a lot more reluctant” to invest in Britain now, compared to the US.”
When asked if this had anything to do with his humuliation over phone hacking a failed bid for BSkyB he replied “No, not at all, its just the English.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jun/28/rupert-murdoch-snubs-britain-billions
And the Texican Republicans earn special mention for this –
Texas Republican delegates met earlier this month to put together their 2012 platform. Much of this focused on the educational system. Alarmingly, they openly state that they oppose schools teaching ‘higher order thinking skills”, on the grounds that it may challenge ‘student’s fixed beliefs’ and undermine ‘parental authority.’ Page 12 of their official platform discusses their thinking on teaching critical thinking.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/texasgop_pre/assets/original/2012-Platform-Final.pdf
They also include this gem –
“We affirm that the practice of homosexuality tears at the fabric of society and contributes to the breakdown of the family unit. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country’s founders, and shared by the majority of Texans.
Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable “alternative” lifestyle, in public policy, nor should “family” be redefined to include homosexual “couples.” We believe there should be no granting of special legal entitlements or creation of special status for homosexual behavior, regardless of state of origin. Additionally, we oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction or belief in traditional values.”
A truly frightening document.
Before crikey switches off the lights, I’ll add my own best wishes, Dave and Jeremy, and with thanks for the commentary and the laughs. Hope to catch you around the interwebs one way or another.
And best wishes and thanks to all other contributors for all the rest that made PP a good little blog. (Hmm, didn’t the Oz recently call it a ‘column’.)
Fines aren’t about revenue. It’s purely coincidental that changes in the penalty unit are announced in state budgets (e.g. http://is.gd/vic_pu ). Whatever. My response:
“FORCE THE STATES AND TERRITORIES TO MEANS-TEST FINES!
A fine is a weapon of class warfare. For a rich person, a fine may represent minutes of earnings or savings. For a poor person, it represents days of earnings and weeks or months of savings…
Unfortunately… it is not unconstitutional for the States and Territories to wage class warfare while collecting fines. But if the States and Territories have another cash cow which arguably *is* unconstitutional, the threat of a legal challenge to that cash cow can be used to extract concessions…”
Read the full article: http://is.gd/mtfines .
Tin foil hat time, I wonder if the Government was in a stronger position, if News Ltd considered a price rise for their papers come July 1st.
Given Abbott’s campaigning and the state of the polls I don’t think any extra effort is needed.
Of course, if you consider that News Ltd is apparently carbon neutral, they shouldn’t have to charge anything more.
Where will I go now to get a guaranteed argument every time I say something?
I’ll beat Howard B.
Aborigines are not disadvantaged because of their race … especially the white ones.
Julia Gillard will go down in history as our worst ever PM … in fact she’s already there.
Free speech is valued more by the right than the left.
The carbon tax … and all the other measure to reduce CO2 … won’t change the world’s climate, but will cost each of us dearly in money, progress and lost opportunity.
Tony Abbott will bury Julia Gillard, and we shall ALL benefit.
And finally, the natural political and social tendency for all the population is conservative.
“John Howard, Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan are the greatest leaders of the English speaking world’s recent times.”
Fair enough. It depends a bit on what you read into “leader”. Reagan was a good leader, no doubt about it – even if I wouldn’t agree with all of his decisions. I don’t think thatcher was much of a “leader” – I think she was just a machiavellian applier of power. Howard, I think it’s too early. He’s essentially judged on his economic record, but he didn’t face anything like the challenges that gillard/swan/rudd have had to contend with. I think howard made some genuinely appalling policy decisions that have already caused us problems and will continue to do so. On the other hand, he made some quite sound choices as well.
I’m not sure who I’d nominate. I think, from the 20th century, there’s winston churchill, then daylight.
“Healthcare and housing are not human ‘rights’.”
Sure. But that doesn’t mean they’re bad ideas. Lots of things aren’t rights, but having them makes everyone collectively and (usually) individually better off, and coordinating them centrally (if not necessarily implementing them centrally) can be an efficient way to do things. In general is’t a lot harder to justify “postive rights” (a right _to_ something) than “negative rights” (freedom _from_ something). At least on simple, universal grounds. I’m with you there.
“Julia Gillard misled the Australian public regarding a carbon tax.”
Technically, it’s not a tax. It’s a permit system with a fixed price that affects a few of the largest polluters and will be transitioned to permit trading in a few years regardless of who is in government after the next election (that’s my bet, I could be wrong). The ALP have always maintained that they wanted to see a price on carbon emissions. The choice of an initial fixed price was the result of compromise with the indies.
“Ayn Rand was a visionary and one the great philosophers of modern times.”
Haven’t read her, to be honest. But the descriptions of “atlas shrugged” don’t sound promising at all. I don’t like to use the word “great”, but I think peter singer’s pretty good. Some of the best stuff that I’d call “philosophy” that I’ve read has come from economists and game theorists – robert axelrod, thomas schelling on cooperation and strategies thereof, kenneth waltz on politics.
“”Where will I go now to get a guaranteed argument every time I say something?”
You aren’t married?
Aborigines are not disadvantaged because of their race … especially the white ones.
True. And I think that’s something that bolta consistently failed to understand. the ones who are disadvantaged are so because of history, circumstance, prejudice and culture.
Julia Gillard will go down in history as our worst ever PM … in fact she’s already there.
Mmm. Politically, she and KRUDD!!1!! have been train-wrecks. They’ve been uninspiring, not particularly trustworthy, shambolic and fragile. On the other hand, their policy achievements have been pretty solid, despite some real challenges. Despite all of the noise, they have actually been getting the job done.
Free speech is valued more by the right than the left.
I think that’s probably true to some extent. But I think the right is a lot more comfortable with wealth influencing policy. The left doesn’t sanctify wealth like the right does.
The carbon tax … and all the other measure to reduce CO2 … won’t change the world’s climate, but will cost each of us dearly in money, progress and lost opportunity.
That’s a “wait and see”.
Tony Abbott will bury Julia Gillard, and we shall ALL benefit.
Hmm. No, I don’t think many people here will agree with the second claim. The first is a prediction, and we know what yogi berra said about those. I personally think you’re right, but I’m willing to be surprised. I secretly hope for another minority government, whoever holds the keys to the lodge. I think our MPs have had to work a great deal harder this term than they have probably since WWII.
And finally, the natural political and social tendency for all the population is conservative.
Absolutely. But luckily we had gadflys so that women and aborigines got to vote, so that people had rights, so that children got educations and so on. “The left” occasionally gets it wrong (and no, I’m obviously not talking about communism – I mean the left that exists in normal places), but more often than not it’s the left that is on the right side of history.
Capt Col
“the natural political and social tendency for all the population is conservative.”
I agree, the problem is that the rubbish you, Howard B and others peddle doesn’t bear the remotest resemblance to conservatism. Thatcher, Reagan, Howard were not conservatives, they were opportunistic vandals. Rand is not a conservative &c &c
Please do not feed the Col.
Cheers Jeremy and Dave and everyone else that got this site going.
Anyway, I set up a discussion board called “The ghost of Pure Poison” for people who want to continue to bang on about how sad and irritating much of our media is.
I’ve never done this sort of thing before but its done now.
Here’s the link:
http://theghostofpureposi.proboards.com/index.cgi
I presume if you want to register, just go and register, then when it closes here people can carry on.
I dunno if anyone wants to carry on, but if you do you are welcome to do it there. We can set up a board dedicated to the Something Wonky podcast if people want too.
As of yet the only post is me introducing myself.
I’m the admin, but I disappear offline – sometimes for months at a time – so once it got started (if people are into it) I was gonna hand the admin stuff over to Matt of Canberra if he wanted the job.
Its probably not a bad idea to keep the media criticism thing going, and now people can have a go at crikey if they want.
If no ones into it tho thats cool, just don’t show up and register and I’ll shut the whole board down in a month or so.
(I assume Dave and Jeremy have no objections to this cos I emailed them asking if they objected the other week. If you do guys say so now.)
Anyway there you have it. If you want it.
Oh and Ayn Rand ha ha – good one.
That homophobe died on the dole (as Ann O’conner) addicted to drugs btw. Just saying….
How about if Crikey continues to have these open threads for discussion (more or less) on the media (more or less)?
Further to my previous, the persuasion that the trolls here seem to be following, and the medja, “Liberal” Party &c is Peronism, more or less.
If anyone is feeling a little bored and lost this weekend or subsequently you can always read my blog at:
http://www.calyptorhynchus.blogspot.com
Col – Free speech is valued more by the right than the left – that’s why they want to hog it all for themselves is it? And what calyptorhynchus said @34.
Farewell and Thanks to all.
Thank you for your considered response, Matthew. You stand out here as one of a very few who don’t hunt with the pack.
And, yes, I’m married. But our politics coincide, so no arguments there unless I play devil’s advocate from your side.
In the same way that young boys are more valued by Catholic Priests than Imams.
Yeah, I’ll pay that.
Cheers
“Matthew. You stand out here as one of a very few who don’t hunt with the pack.”
Mostly I think I just take myself too seriously. At least, when I’m sober.
“I’m married. But our politics coincide”
A recipe for a peaceful relationship.
I’m disappointed that Dave and Jeremy weren’t picked up by those beacons of free speech at the Torygraph and the Hun – special “non-paywall” content!
Because “frrrrreedom of speech” tops “plurality of speech” every time, right?
It’s been a big day for goodbyes today. A lot of people at work are moving on – canberra’s IT systems run on contractors, and it’s EOFY in a tight year. Some of the contracts not being extended make me scratch my head a bit, but it’s not up to me.
They’re going out into an unusually quiet market – those efficiency dividends have been biting, and whatever was said in the budget speech, belts are being tightened. So a few of them are going to have to look hard to find work. Or, god forbid, become permanent staff somewhere (a few would rather be unemployed). So I’ve said goodbye a bit today, even to my old boss.
I’m going to miss PP. I just wanted somewhere to have a good argument with people and express my occasional exasperation at what passes for news and analysis. AB’s site was once the place I found for that, but things turned a bit nasty a couple of years back. I think our hosts have been excellent and most accomodating, and I think I probably even agree with a lot of their political positions.
And despite any illusions I may have created, I honestly don’t have the foggiest idea what I’m on about. Most of the time.
Guys, I hope you can see your way clear to at least the odd chat thread at S.W. I guess I COULD do it myself, but I’m essentially too lazy. Besides, I’m usually terrified that I’ll say something that’ll get me sued. That said, I believe I’ve only ever been the target of the dreaded SNIP once – it was a moment of celebration for me (although I added a few of my own for irony, and I can think of at least two posts that never saw the light of day … justifiably).
I promise to be an avid fan of the new pod. As long as there is cackling, and the occasional news about the cats. The internet needs cats.
I’ll miss you all. Specially Angra. And Jules, and our resident contrarians CC and HB. And other people I’ll only think of once I’ve posted this.
Slainte!
I’d hesitate before calling Ayn Rand a philosopher. Her knowledge of philosophy is shallow and grossly partisan – summed up by her observation ‘that in the history of philosophy she could only recommend “three A’s”—Aristotle, Aquinas, and Ayn Rand.’
Daniel Dennett defines a ‘rand’ as: “An angry tirade occasioned by mistaking philosophical disagreement for a personal attack and/or evidence of unspeakable moral corruption.”
Sound familiar?
Did anyone else hear about News Corp/Murdoch in the media today?
There were stories about Murdoch’s proposed division of operations from Murdoch’s WSJ and Murdoch’s Fox on ABC at various points, an extract from an interview with Murdoch’s Kim Williams on PM, the Media report – along with plenty of product placement for the full interview on ABC on sunday.
Nothing anywhere in Oz media about the last shocking development in the phone-hacking case (ie: more news/police corruption).
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=49569&c=1
If I adjust my tin-foil hat just right I can detect a ‘conspiracy’ involving news ltd and their ABC.
Well thank you sincerely MoC and John and many others.
I like to follow the QI dictum “You don’t get points necessarily for being right, but for being quite interesting” (St. Stephen of Fry).
BTW – @23 The Texas Republicans have declared war on the teaching of ‘higher order thinking skills’ which may undermine student’s fixed beliefs and respect for parental authority. But these are the same neo-fascists who idolise Ayn Rand.
The Libertarian Party, has stated that “without Ayn Rand, the libertarian movement would not exist.”
‘Libertarian’ is a great example of US doublespeak. Almost as good as ‘Liberal’ in the context of Australian politics.
Go figure.
To end on a poetic geeky note, the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) researchers said recently that a Navy very high-resolution Doppler radar can actually spot individual raindrops in a cloudburst falling to the ground.
Sounds like a Leonard Cohen song.
They’ll all hit the ground and burst into oblivion anyway.
Whilst the Pure Poison of Bolt is so quickly recognised that you spit it out, the milder poison of the MSM is perhaps more damaging because we don’t notice it as easily
Let’s look at Friday nights ABC TV Melbourne News …
Lead story is the State and Federal governments bailout of the Geelong aluminium smelter. This plant is old and inefficient, and the company had said that with the high Australian dollar and the fall in aluminium prices the plant may need to close.
The bailout is $40 million to keep the plant going until 2014. (540 jobs will stay – 2 years – that is $74k per job – of course the report did not do this simple calculation).
The story had the state Premier saying he thinks the carbon price is a factor, and the federal government denying this.
NO MENTION of the lunacy of bailing out an old inefficient plant that relies on old contracts ensuring it has cheap electricity from burning coal and how this contradicts the need to reduce carbon emissions. No question by anyone of why these workers get such a huge bailout when it is still possible that the plan will close in 2014.
Next story is that the federal government has deferred decisions on phasing out some old Victorian coal power plants.
No suggestion that having to pay them to close is not justified (the point of the carbon tax and then ETS is to have companies make economic decisions, and as the ETS will be targeted to reduce our emission by 5% by 2020 from 2000 levels, shutting down a power station will make no difference to our emissions as the ETS will ensure that the cut is 5% anyway).
The next story is Asylum Impasse. Talk/quotes from Abbott, ‘government’, Wilkie, Pyne, Bowen, Windsor, Oakeshott. Not a single mention of the Greens.
No mention of late last night’s passing in the Senate of the continuation of the NT Intervention and how this was unexpected.
Next is a puff piece on asylum seekers at Christmas Island helping to restore the islands building heritage. Notable to a cynic like me that this was an extremely rare chance to hear a Christmas Island asylum seeker speak – and all we hear him say is how bad the conditions on the boat were and that it took 17 days (message – bad people smugglers). (But it does sound like there have been some improvements in processing time and conditions.)
Overseas stories are fairly balanced and accurate.
The ABC continue its record of ra-ra-royalty and war veterans with yet another story – this time a VERY long story on the Queen recognising Bomber command. So much real news and we get this royalist pap.
I DON’T BELIEVE IT – the old footage of bombers has the original voice-over saying “the target is Dresden”. So lets celebrate the justifiable bravery of these airmen by mentioning what may well be a war crime!!
The report of Rinehart asking chairman of Fairfax to resign if things don’t get better just didn’t have time to mention that since Rinehart had got onto the board of Ten their shares had fallen by about 60%. So she sounds reasonable when this should be questioned.
Lots of stories not mentioned – such as that UNESCO has handed the State and Australian Governments an ultimatum: do more to protect the Great Barrier Reef or risk it being listed as in danger.
So whilst most would think that the ABC News was balanced and fair, I believe that this can only be said if balance is defined by being in-between Labor and Liberal.
Because the bias of the ABC goes unnoticed by most, perhaps this bias is far more damaging than the rantings of Bolt?
Matty
As usual, your thoughtful and considered reply is thwarting my attempts to troll the more febrile, fanatical and fractious of the regulars.
Regarding Ayn Rand
To be honest, I never read much of her Objectivism philosophy, but enough to know it appeared, as a whole, a bit of a fanatical and impractical creed. Though, I would concur with a lot of the general outline of her thinking as opposed to the package as a whole.
I did start reading Atlas Shrugged but found it to be hard work and not what I would call literature.
All references to Ayn Rand (or Anne O’connor) on my part have been for the benefit of one RHWombat who is under the crippling impression that anyone not as Marxist as himself is a ‘Randian’.
Regarding Pure Poison
The best thing about this blog has been its boutique nature; its not-too-small, not-too-large group of regulars. It was like a nice little wine bar amongst a sea of soulless mega-clubs.
There was a real community vibe about this place and that, to me, is the saddest thing about its demise. But, alas, the wheel turns.
So, to all the Pure Poison patrons I have had dealings with over time, even the ones I may have trolled or who have found me disagreeable in opinion even when being genuine:
“And so fare thee well: Thou never shalt hear herald any more”
Angra here’s to the press council and a wanker comparing pool heating to the apocalypse or whatever that was.
23 Skidoo Matt, Jack, RUC, JR, MWH, SHV, zoot, fractious, Sammy J, Rob J and everyone else take care. And a special thanks to craigy for a guest post from years ago that I still remember. Cheers Howie, take care.
It was good while it lasted.
But its over and it won’t be back till yesterday is here.
Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do…
Like Marek I don’t do podcasts so I’ll see you all, possibly at the new site Jules set up. It’s been great, thanks Jeremy and Dave and all the participants.
Jeremy, Dave and all the others that have made this blog a regular stopover for me, even if I have not commented a lot, thanks so much.
I will miss one of the few bright spots in the oz web scene. I do believe Crikey is making a big mistake in not begging you to stay because this one really worked with it’s mixture of thoughtful posts and generally intelligent commentary.