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	<title>Comments on: In crisis lies opportunity</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/</link>
	<description>Nourishing the environmental debate</description>
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		<title>By: John Hepburn</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator>John Hepburn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/?p=181#comment-119</guid>
		<description>Another option for spending nearly $10b is the programme proposed by the Brotherhood of St Lawrence in their submission to the greenpaper. The report recommends the Government implements a national energy efficiency program for
3.5 million low-income households over the next 7 years. For an outlay of $8.7 billion, you could provide $2000 - $6000 worth of energy saving measures to low income households depending on the relative benefits in each circumstance. This would result in savings of around $14 billion over the next 12 years, representing a saving to the community of around $5.3 billion over that period. You can download their report here: http://www.bsl.org.au/pdfs/KPMG_national_energy_efficiency_program_low-income_households.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another option for spending nearly $10b is the programme proposed by the Brotherhood of St Lawrence in their submission to the greenpaper. The report recommends the Government implements a national energy efficiency program for<br />
3.5 million low-income households over the next 7 years. For an outlay of $8.7 billion, you could provide $2000 &#8211; $6000 worth of energy saving measures to low income households depending on the relative benefits in each circumstance. This would result in savings of around $14 billion over the next 12 years, representing a saving to the community of around $5.3 billion over that period. You can download their report here: <a href="http://www.bsl.org.au/pdfs/KPMG_national_energy_efficiency_program_low-income_households.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.bsl.org.au/pdfs/KPMG_national_energy_efficiency_program_low-income_households.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alan Kessing</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/#comment-117</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Kessing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/?p=181#comment-117</guid>
		<description>Instead of the $10B being ospent on centralised power stations, why not spend it on $10K of PhV arrays on a million homes. The sellthe transmission lines for copper scrap. But that would mean energy (and otherwise) independent households - a bad precedent for politicians, it might lead to other, decdentralising ideas. Can&#039;t be having with that! As Tony Lovell said, the future jobs are not in the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instead of the $10B being ospent on centralised power stations, why not spend it on $10K of PhV arrays on a million homes. The sellthe transmission lines for copper scrap. But that would mean energy (and otherwise) independent households &#8211; a bad precedent for politicians, it might lead to other, decdentralising ideas. Can&#8217;t be having with that! As Tony Lovell said, the future jobs are not in the past.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Mckinlay</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Mckinlay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/?p=181#comment-115</guid>
		<description>DaS Energy Pty Ltd a backyard company arose after six years of make it and see technology advances,

Driving force being Coal boils Water into Steam gas to drive a turbine.

550 degrees Celsius is 175 bar Steam gas pressure or 350 megawatts Hitachi turbine generator.

550 degrees Celsius 61,000 bar Co2 gas pressure.

Thats a lot less Coal, Carbon and Climate change for 175 bar pressure.

Water and liquid Co2 both turn to gas when heated, both turn back to liquid when cooled.

For water its called condensating and for Co2 its called Cryogenic cooling.

Proven by working test model gas can drive water without any pressure loss.

By keeping gas and water separate two seperate but cojoined flow drive a hydro turbine.

So potent is Co2 as a drive force temperature above +2 Celsius sets turbine generator in motion.

Hydro turbine increase wattage by increased flow &gt;350 megawatts no Coal, no Carbon, no Climate change.

So mind blowing is the development it dinosaurs Coal, Solar and Geothermal power using a Steam turbine.

Using Metane gas a a heating agent and small size for automotive is further distruption to the harm makers.

So important it be we change from our old ways the development was made gift for the good of the people.

By not addressing DaS Radial Engine all level of Government continues the pretence only Coal can supply 
base load power, and only Oil can get us round.

Surely such massive reduction in Consumer costs must profit the Nation as a whole.

Why is Governent only backing those technologies that dont threaten Coal or Oil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DaS Energy Pty Ltd a backyard company arose after six years of make it and see technology advances,</p>
<p>Driving force being Coal boils Water into Steam gas to drive a turbine.</p>
<p>550 degrees Celsius is 175 bar Steam gas pressure or 350 megawatts Hitachi turbine generator.</p>
<p>550 degrees Celsius 61,000 bar Co2 gas pressure.</p>
<p>Thats a lot less Coal, Carbon and Climate change for 175 bar pressure.</p>
<p>Water and liquid Co2 both turn to gas when heated, both turn back to liquid when cooled.</p>
<p>For water its called condensating and for Co2 its called Cryogenic cooling.</p>
<p>Proven by working test model gas can drive water without any pressure loss.</p>
<p>By keeping gas and water separate two seperate but cojoined flow drive a hydro turbine.</p>
<p>So potent is Co2 as a drive force temperature above +2 Celsius sets turbine generator in motion.</p>
<p>Hydro turbine increase wattage by increased flow &gt;350 megawatts no Coal, no Carbon, no Climate change.</p>
<p>So mind blowing is the development it dinosaurs Coal, Solar and Geothermal power using a Steam turbine.</p>
<p>Using Metane gas a a heating agent and small size for automotive is further distruption to the harm makers.</p>
<p>So important it be we change from our old ways the development was made gift for the good of the people.</p>
<p>By not addressing DaS Radial Engine all level of Government continues the pretence only Coal can supply<br />
base load power, and only Oil can get us round.</p>
<p>Surely such massive reduction in Consumer costs must profit the Nation as a whole.</p>
<p>Why is Governent only backing those technologies that dont threaten Coal or Oil.</p>
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		<title>By: steve truman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator>steve truman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 06:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/?p=181#comment-113</guid>
		<description>G&#039;day John,

A very thoughtful article. What you are saying about using some of the Govt surplus to subsidize the instillation of solar hot water systems in every Australian home makes a fair bit of sense to me.

Of Course those States that Own the Coal-Fired power stations i.e QLD &amp; NSW would be dead set against it. At the minute that is why it is paid lip service by both of those states.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G&#8217;day John,</p>
<p>A very thoughtful article. What you are saying about using some of the Govt surplus to subsidize the instillation of solar hot water systems in every Australian home makes a fair bit of sense to me.</p>
<p>Of Course those States that Own the Coal-Fired power stations i.e QLD &#038; NSW would be dead set against it. At the minute that is why it is paid lip service by both of those states.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Cox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/?p=181#comment-111</guid>
		<description>John Hepburn is right in his general approach. If we are going to have a financial stimulus let us spend the money on something worthwhile.

Permalink&#039;s objections are wrong. MRETs and Emissions Permits Trading destroyed? We should applaud that. Both are expensive, foolish schemes that increase the price of all energy without guaranteeing a significant increase in renewables.

Permalink says that it will push up the costs of other infrastructure schemes. Not true. The costs of geothermal and solar thermal will be largely spent overseas on drilling rigs and power stations. With a little bit of imagination we can get most of the money for that equipment from our overseas buyers of minerals and energy.

What a load of rubbish that it will destroy market confidence. The cost of building renewable energy sources will drop by 15 to 25% for each doubling of capacity. By the time we have spent the first $10Billion the cost of renewables will be less than the cost of fossil fuel burning plants. Everyone will be wanting to invest.

Solar Thermal is base load and runs all night. Why don&#039;t people read what happens in these plants. They store energy in molten salt or in water and run the turbines all day and all night. Geothermal is obviously a 24 hour a day proposition.

For the expenditure of $40 Billion dollars over 10 years we will be able to decommission all fossil burning electricity generating plants and have plenty of electricity capacity including that from the normal increase in demand.

At the end of the 10 years the wholesale cost of producing energy will be 50% to 25% lower than the cost of wholesale energy if we continue producing it from fossil fuels. If people do not believe me I suggest they get out their spreadsheets and do the sums.

The financial turmoil is a wonderful opportunity for our political leaders to truly lead because the population is ready to follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Hepburn is right in his general approach. If we are going to have a financial stimulus let us spend the money on something worthwhile.</p>
<p>Permalink&#8217;s objections are wrong. MRETs and Emissions Permits Trading destroyed? We should applaud that. Both are expensive, foolish schemes that increase the price of all energy without guaranteeing a significant increase in renewables.</p>
<p>Permalink says that it will push up the costs of other infrastructure schemes. Not true. The costs of geothermal and solar thermal will be largely spent overseas on drilling rigs and power stations. With a little bit of imagination we can get most of the money for that equipment from our overseas buyers of minerals and energy.</p>
<p>What a load of rubbish that it will destroy market confidence. The cost of building renewable energy sources will drop by 15 to 25% for each doubling of capacity. By the time we have spent the first $10Billion the cost of renewables will be less than the cost of fossil fuel burning plants. Everyone will be wanting to invest.</p>
<p>Solar Thermal is base load and runs all night. Why don&#8217;t people read what happens in these plants. They store energy in molten salt or in water and run the turbines all day and all night. Geothermal is obviously a 24 hour a day proposition.</p>
<p>For the expenditure of $40 Billion dollars over 10 years we will be able to decommission all fossil burning electricity generating plants and have plenty of electricity capacity including that from the normal increase in demand.</p>
<p>At the end of the 10 years the wholesale cost of producing energy will be 50% to 25% lower than the cost of wholesale energy if we continue producing it from fossil fuels. If people do not believe me I suggest they get out their spreadsheets and do the sums.</p>
<p>The financial turmoil is a wonderful opportunity for our political leaders to truly lead because the population is ready to follow.</p>
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		<title>By: tony lovell</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>tony lovell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 04:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/?p=181#comment-110</guid>
		<description>Please go to youtube and look up &quot;The Business Case for Protecting the Climate&quot; which is a presentation given by Hunter Lovins to Google - it includes the classic line &quot;a dynamic growing industrial economy unleashing sustainability&quot;.

The jobs of the future are not in the industries of the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please go to youtube and look up &#8220;The Business Case for Protecting the Climate&#8221; which is a presentation given by Hunter Lovins to Google &#8211; it includes the classic line &#8220;a dynamic growing industrial economy unleashing sustainability&#8221;.</p>
<p>The jobs of the future are not in the industries of the past.</p>
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		<title>By: EnergyPedant</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/2008/10/17/in-crisis-lies-opportunity/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>EnergyPedant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 03:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/rooted/?p=181#comment-109</guid>
		<description>The Solar hot water heating is a good idea.  Currently some of the best energy efficiency and carbon reduction can be achieved by switching to solar hot water.  Much much more effective than solar PV in $ per outcome.

The trouble with government building Solar Thermal power stations is that when the state governments privatised and de-regulated the energy sector there is an implicit promise not to make suicidal market forays.

Dumping a massive amount of solar thermal into the system, subsidised by the tax payer, would  create some unintended consequences.

1. Kill other renewable schemes.  MRET scheme would never survive if the government artificially flooded the grid with solar thermal. 

2. Massively push up the capital costs of other projects.  There aren&#039;t enough engineering and construction workers to go around.

3. Destroys market confidence.  No one will invest in the electricity or renewables sector when the government has a precedent of intervention, picking winners and flooding the market with subsidised electricity.  

4. Solar thermal is not baseload.  Brown coal will still run 24 hours a day, adding excess supply will lower peak prices, this will deter new gas power station construction (since they need higher peak prices to make money) which will lead to the extension of the brown coal lifetimes.

Demand side/efficiency measures are more effective for reduction emissions than supply side measures.  The government could pay the difference in cost for all new homes and commercial buildings to be 7+ star rated rather than 5 star.  A buy-back scheme of inefficient appliances (old freezers/2nd fridges/etc..).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Solar hot water heating is a good idea.  Currently some of the best energy efficiency and carbon reduction can be achieved by switching to solar hot water.  Much much more effective than solar PV in $ per outcome.</p>
<p>The trouble with government building Solar Thermal power stations is that when the state governments privatised and de-regulated the energy sector there is an implicit promise not to make suicidal market forays.</p>
<p>Dumping a massive amount of solar thermal into the system, subsidised by the tax payer, would  create some unintended consequences.</p>
<p>1. Kill other renewable schemes.  MRET scheme would never survive if the government artificially flooded the grid with solar thermal. </p>
<p>2. Massively push up the capital costs of other projects.  There aren&#8217;t enough engineering and construction workers to go around.</p>
<p>3. Destroys market confidence.  No one will invest in the electricity or renewables sector when the government has a precedent of intervention, picking winners and flooding the market with subsidised electricity.  </p>
<p>4. Solar thermal is not baseload.  Brown coal will still run 24 hours a day, adding excess supply will lower peak prices, this will deter new gas power station construction (since they need higher peak prices to make money) which will lead to the extension of the brown coal lifetimes.</p>
<p>Demand side/efficiency measures are more effective for reduction emissions than supply side measures.  The government could pay the difference in cost for all new homes and commercial buildings to be 7+ star rated rather than 5 star.  A buy-back scheme of inefficient appliances (old freezers/2nd fridges/etc..).</p>
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