Murray Murmurings: scientists question “great new science”
The end of last year saw fiery community meetings with farmers burning copies of the guide to the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, followed by a succession of resignations from the Murray Darling Basin Authority (MDBA).
Now it’s leading scientists refusing to work with the MDBA, with the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists declaring it won’t be involved in a “fundamentally flawed process” after new modelling dramatically decreased the minimum level of water to be returned to the river.
The previous guide to the basin plan saw a minimum of 4000 gigalitres of water put back in the basin. New research from the MDBA now advocates just 2800 gigalitres.
When told that the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists’ proposal for an independent review into this new research had been denied by the MDBA, Peter Cosier, founder and director at the Wentworth Group, resigned from his position on the 8-person testing committee for the Murray-Darling Basin Plan.
Environmental engineer Tim Stubbs, who leads the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists on water issues, spoke to Crikey about the need for an independent review of the science.
Stubbs said the science was clear and that 4000 gigalitres minimum was the general consensus amongst the majority of scientists who studied the Basin.
The Murray Darling Basin Authority conducted two years of its own research and put together its own figure of 3850 gigalitres, explains Stubbs. “The authority — after two years of its own research — sees an absolute minimum of nearly 4000 and then suddenly ‘new modelling’ says 2800 gigalitres, without giving any indication of how that amount will affect changes to the health of the river system,” said Stubbs.
Stubbs says there is a concern within the scientific community about the number of ecologists and the limited depth of ecological skills within the MDBA, and the scientists working at the MDBA are not prominent or well-known scientists.
“It could be great new science and that’s wonderful if it is and achieves the same outcomes, but such a significant change in such a short amount of time needs to be independently peer reviewed,” said Stubbs.
The latest figures came to light at a recent two-day conference held by the MDBA, which the Wentworth Group refused to attend as it did not view the forum as a suitable replacement for an independent review.
One of the scientists who attended the conference, professor of environmental science at the University of New South Wales, Richard Kingsford said he was “not happy talking” to Crikey about the changes to the Murray-Darling Basin Plan science and instead was “waiting with bated breath to see what’s happening.”
“I am hoping the government will examine some of the issues raised around the science,” said Kingsford.
He explained that some of the new modelling used some of the original models from the CSIRO’s Murray-Darling Basin Sustainable Yields Project but that it was unclear to him how much the models had been adapted.
When asked whether an independent review had been refused, Chief Executive Mr Rob Freeman told Crikey “No, the Authority has not refused. A decision has not yet been taken.”
In more general statement emailed to Crikey earlier, the MDBA said “At this stage the Authority is still considering its development of the future processes to support the final Basin Plan. The Authority will not prematurely enter into a discussion of these processes in response to the views of just one interest/lobby group.”
It did note that the MDBA saw transparency as key to the whole project, adding: “However, the Chairman has made it clear on a number of occasions that ongoing and transparent monitoring and evaluation of the plan must be integral to the process and future outcomes.”
Groups including the Australian Conservation Foundation have added their voice to the calls for an independent review.
In a press release sent yesterday, ACF’s Healthy Rivers Campaigner Dr Arlene Harriss-Buchan called for tomorrow’s meeting of state and federal Murray-Darling ministers to demand a review of the science: “The science underpinning the plan must be peer-reviewed, transparent and open to scrutiny. When the ministerial council meets on Friday it should make clear that it will not allow the science to be buried, lost or downplayed in the next draft of the Basin Plan.”
When asked about the drop down to 2800 gigalitres by ABC’s 7.30 earlier this week, MDBA chairman Craig Knowles said:
“I’m yet to land on any numbers. I’m yet to conclude my processes. Science is important, but so are other things. This is not just about a science exercise for a whole lot of academics and scientists. It’s actually about real lives, real people, real economies.”
Stubbs told Crikey that the scientific data and social scientific data needs to be laid out clearly together. “Our concern at the moment is the Authority’s assertions that they need to make judgment calls,” explain Stubbs. “Each piece of information should be transparently laid out and the judgments made from that and then people can understand the different calls from that and what we gain or lose with each choice.”
It’s critical that the right science is used because $10 billion of taxpayer money is being thrown into the project, notes Stubbs. The cost of running the MDBA for this year alone is $38 million
One common frustration raised by farmers and other groups who disagree with the original guide figure of 4000 gigalitres is that the science is flawed because the research was done during the drought. Many in the basin have battled floods and heavy rains in recent months.
Stubbs disagrees. “The flood is a short respite but it doesn’t fix everything. All the modelling is done on a 110 years of climate data and is very long term. Every good farmer knows that you don’t set up your business based on the wettest year. Good farmers see that the climate is very variable and they need a business that can survive the good times and the bad and the environment is no different.”








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Irrigators 1, River 0.
Well, what a surprise. If you don’t like the answer, change the model. Or change the assumptions.
Remind you of anything?
We need a new lexicon for flexible scientists and their political masters.
Here are some useful neologisms:
Model-shagging
Remodelling
Adult modelling
Swedish Modelling
Consensual modelling
Murraymodelling
Gigamodelling
Whoremodelling
Neomodelling
Fearmodelling
Grantmodelling
Advanced Riverfucking
Dr B. “Cubby” Joyce (Dip.Ed. U. E. Bumcrack) is Australia’s leading Demeritus Professor of AR.
This seems to be to be another example of lobbyists hiding behind the label of science to suggest that they are somewhat objective, whatever that may mean.
I find it quite surprising that the Wentworth Group has a new found love of independent review. One of their members, Quentin Grafton, was an “independent reviewer” commissioned by the previous administration of the MDBA to review the ABARE study into the likely social and economic impacts of the basin plan. Not surprisingly (and totally at odds with the figure of 10,000 lost jobs estimated by Grafton in a study for the Wentworth Group of Scientists), his independent review was quite happy with the ABARE calculation of 800 lost jobs.
These guys should go and bleed on someone else. I guess they thought they had it in the bag but now the whole thing is being subjected to a critical process.
PS I don’t think Kingsford is wandering around with a sardine on his tongue – the word is bated NOT baited.
Also for Frank
If you want something to work on with regard to ideologically driven modelling, can you explain this? In work for the Garnaut report (into the impacts of global warming) one of the costs of global warming was a reduction in irrigated agricultural output. Prof Quiggan and his group calculated a 60-70% (figures are from memory and so approximate) reduction in irrigated agricultural output from a 30% odd reduction in irrigation water, but now the same people, doing modelling for the Basin Plan, found a 15% reduction in irrigated agricultural output from a 30% odd reduction in irrigation water. (Just for your information, in one model the area under irrigated agriculture was allowed to increase in the presence of trade, but in the other model it wasn’t. You decide which is more likely. Hint its not the second one).
The only thing that has changed is the ideological context. If it is about global warming than cuts in irrigated agriculture is a big deal, and if it is about increased environmental flows, then irrigated agriculture is a minor deal.
Can you tell me why I should have confidence in the findings of such people?
Johnno:
“a 60-70% … reduction in irrigated agricultural output from a 30% odd reduction in irrigation water, but now the same people, doing modelling for the Basin Plan, found a 15% reduction in irrigated agricultural output from a 30% odd reduction in irrigation water”
The infinite elasticity of models is the root cause. Can’t get no satisfaction.
Unfortunately economists have a predilection for complex models, I suspect it makes them feel like scientists but such models can be very sensitive to small changes in inputs and assumptions not to mention other things like chaotic and dynamic behaviour.
The alternative is an empirical approach, that is go and have a look at what really happens.
Even then there are issues. Prof Grafton (Wentworth Group of Scientists) is fond of an ABS data set on Gross Value of Irrigated Agricultural Production to show the effects of reduced irrigation water on agricultural output between 2000/01 and 2006/07 is negligible. Unfortunately, he does not adjust the figures for inflation and the adjusted figures tell a different story.
“Science is important, but so are other things. This is not just about a science exercise for a whole lot of academics and scientists. It’s actually about real lives, real people, real economies.”
This is completely bass-ackwards. It’s concerning that the chairman is so confused about some fundamental concepts.
The role of ‘the Science’ in all of this is to try and estimate as accurately as possible given available information the best guess of what will happen to the physical environment given different water flow scenarios. That’s it. After this is done, you then try and balance the social and economic costs (which are also just best guesses given the available information and best known methodology). You might decide in this process that a certain level of damage to the environment is acceptable to prevent a certain economic or social consequence, that’s fine, as long as everyone is up front about it.
This guy seems to think that the social and economic stuff comes in at the modelling stage for river flows. That’s just bizarre.
“Modelling” has become the new ‘damned lies and statistics’. Models, (and statistics) can appear ‘infinitely elastic’ if you only spend 10 seconds reading the headline numbers and want to believe that infallable answers are actually possible to arrive at. In almost all cases, when models appear to disagree, the difference can be relatively easily tracked down in terms of differing assumptions, which the modellers are usually at pains to point out in the relevant documents, that almost no one bothers to actually read. The models and statistics get a bad wrap because of the ignorance, lazyness and misuse of those trying to skew the results to their own ends, but it is not because the underlying work is at fault.
Bog: “In almost all cases, when models appear to disagree, the difference can be relatively easily tracked down in terms of differing assumptions”
That’s stating the obvious- underlines the fact that models are infinitely elastic.
If you don’t like the result, change an assumption or two. River too wet? Hang on a moment while I tweak this model’s nipple…
Be a great cartoon…a roomful of models “appearing to disagree”…Norman Lindsay come to mind…
Dear Bogdanovist
This is not fundamentally a question of science and river flows but a public policy question – we have two competing demands irrigated agricultural and environmental flows – how do we carve up the cake? Such matters are based on values, not data, and in our system of government our collective values are taken to be those of our elected representatives. To pretend that it is a matter of “science” is simply for one group to use a purported stance of objectivity to privilege their ideological position.
Can I also ask what your experience is in modelling and the data on which you base your statement “but it is not because the underlying work is at fault”?
Johnno, I completely agree that the final outcome is a matter for competing values. I’m sure that’s what I meant by saying
“You might decide in this process that a certain level of damage to the environment is acceptable to prevent a certain economic or social consequence, that’s fine, as long as everyone is up front about it.”
The point is that the science and modelling etc is seperate from the discussion about how best to weigh things up. You need to model as well as possible the physical world first, so that you can then discuss the various options knowing what their implications would be as best as possible. You can’t possibly weigh up competing interests without actually knowing first what the implications are going to be for different proposals.
Nowhere do I suggest that science alone should dictate what we end up doing, but only that science alone can address the likely outcomes of particular flow scenarios, you can’t negotiate with Nature. We can decide to weigh up likely environmental damage against economic and social benefit (and vice versa) and that obviously is a discussion that is much broader than the question of enviromental modelling.
So you are both right and wrong. There is a fundamental question of first establishing what the consequences of different flow scenarios are likely to be, that is a question that science alone can address (I’m sorry if you think such a common sense statement is ‘idealogical’). Once that is established, we can then sensibly have a discussion about what compromises we want to make between the environmental, social and economic impacts. The issue is that people seem to want to muddy the waters and include those factors into the original modelling, which is bunkum.
As for my experience, I have a PhD in physics, dealing with numerical simulations of physical systems (not climate related), and work as a researcher/modeller/analyst in applied physics. I see careful, cautious work with heavily caveated results skim read, abused, misused and taken way out of context everyday. The researchers end up coping the flack that should be directed at the wankers who take small sections out of context and just use the rest of the report as additional ballast to beat someone over the head with.
Dear Bogdanovist
Seperate is actually spelt separate and idealogical is spelt ideological
While it may be possible to model particular flow outcomes (to a degree of accuracy commensurate with the accuracy of data) the process is not value free as you seem to infer. As an example, the Water Act talks of “key environmental sites”. To my mind there are factual statements which can be measured such as length and volume and there are normative statements which only have meaning according to some value system. What is a key environmental site would appear to be something like this and to say that this is a question that science alone can address is, at best, contentious.
You say “This guy seems to think that the social and economic stuff comes in at the modelling stage for river flows. That’s just bizarre”.
Clearly this is your interpretation and opinion but unsubstantiated by argument.
My point is really simple:
The Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists (in reality just another environmental lobby group) has taken their bat and ball and gone home because the answers that the science is now getting doesn’t align with their political agenda. The reason the science changes is because the Water Act is full of normative statements but without normative standards, so depending on what standard you adopt (a value statement) the outcomes will differ.
I then go on to cite evidence from another area with which I am familiar to show instances where modelling and data is shaped to support ideological positions. I am probably saying that, on the evidence, the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists are hypocrites and, like every other lobby group, favour modelling and data that supports their ideological position.
In the interests of transparency, I think it’s important that this article make it clear that WWF Australian founded the Wentworth Group, as noted here on their website http://www.wwf.org.au/about/wentworthgroup/
The walkout by the Wentworth group of scientists is not based on a difference of figures – it is based on the absence of transparency. The latest estimate of water for the River Murray from the MDBA is so different from that of the earlier figure that both estimates must be scrutinised carefully. While any model has within it certain assumptions, as Bogdanovist points out: “the science and modelling etc is seperate from the discussion about how best to weigh things up. You need to model as well as possible the physical world first, so that you can then discuss the various options knowing what their implications would be as best as possible”. The concern I have is: not that the MDBA figures are right or wrong, but that they come fom a source that may be so worried about social and economic costs that their modelling is flawed. The only way I can independently assess this is if there is transparency. The walk out by the scientists is what is needed to draw attention to such a highly significant issue.
And I have the alternate concern, that is that the figures on social and economic impacts come from a source that is so worried about environmental costs that the social and economic modelling is flawed.
How do you decide who to privilege and what does science mean in a highly politicised environment?
And I say that their walk out is a media stunt because they are worried they are losing control of a process they thought they had in the bag.
Johnno,
modelling of flows and environmental response is not value free as you point out however as others have noted, without transparency, no one can understand the value judgements you have made. Whatever the motivations of the Wentworth group, walking out is an appropriate response as was the resignation of Mike Taylor earlier in the year.
For the commission to simply release a figure without the supporting material is asking for trouble. It gives me no faith that this is a decision based in reason. It makes it look like a politcal stunt. To call what the Wentworth group did a stunt in the face of the commissions effort is a bit rich.
The process of assessing river sysem health and setting environmental flow targets is well established. Its not a climate change are we or aren’t we debate on the science of the issue.
Without the release of the supporting documentation, the only evidence I’ve actully seen is a number of well respected people walking out on the process on the basis that the process is flawed.
I think there was a miscommunication – the ’2800 gigalitres’ is what is required ON TOP OF what has already been purchased in buybacks or saved in delivery efficiencies (upgraded infrastructure, etc). The total figure will be about 3650 GL per year reduction in the overall Cap (averaged across several years – and relative to the amount of water available). It’s a reduction of about 12% (more in some catchments, less in others) – compare this to the approx. 40% reduction forced by the drought.
All the measuring and modelling in the world cannot create 100% accurate environmental science – it’s not ‘cut & dried’ like physics, but interactive and dynamic, and has never been done on this scale before. The MDBA has said all along that it’s effectively a best guess based on best available science, and that the new Cap will be adapted as more information becomes available, and as environmental watering continues. There will still be irate farmers AND environmentalists who think there is not enough water for their own agenda; you can’t please everyone. But someone has to make a start, so you roughly calculate an amount, and check every 5 years to see how it’s going (environmentally AND socioeconomically – as required by the Water Act), and revise as necessary.
But it’s a very good thing we did have the heavy rains last summer – trying to make this reform palatable while still in the grip of drought would have truly been a nightmare.
Dear beetwo77
Please advise the “well established” normative standards used in “assessing river system health” and “setting environmental flow targets” and where the normative standards have been adopted by our elected representatives.
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