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	<title>Comments on: Would road pricing lead to more driving?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/</link>
	<description>Discussion about cities</description>
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		<title>By: Dylan Nicholson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7225</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan Nicholson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7225</guid>
		<description>Well I&#039;ve answer that before - Australian cities are nowhere near at high enough density that such a serious overcrowding problem on trains should ever be a problem.  Even on the most crowded train I&#039;ve been on it&#039;s pretty easy to read a book.
FWIW, I&#039;ve travelled on various trains at peak hours in both Tokyo and Osaka and never saw any really excessive overcrowding either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I&#8217;ve answer that before &#8211; Australian cities are nowhere near at high enough density that such a serious overcrowding problem on trains should ever be a problem.  Even on the most crowded train I&#8217;ve been on it&#8217;s pretty easy to read a book.<br />
FWIW, I&#8217;ve travelled on various trains at peak hours in both Tokyo and Osaka and never saw any really excessive overcrowding either.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve777</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7224</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 05:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7224</guid>
		<description>I dislike traffic but I dislike crowded trains and buses even more, even though Sydney is rarely as bad as the photographs in Alan&#039;s link. If it is too crowded, time on public transport is also dead time. Given the choice (not a realistic option if you work in the Sydney CBD), I&#039;d much rather be in my car with Radio National or ABC News Radio. Plus, in winter, a bus or train carriage is a mobile microbiological incubator.

Whether driving or travelling by Public Transport, my working hours have normally been flexible enough for me to leave early to miss the worst of peak hour, but that is not an option for those with fixed working hours or those who need to drop off and pick up children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dislike traffic but I dislike crowded trains and buses even more, even though Sydney is rarely as bad as the photographs in Alan&#8217;s link. If it is too crowded, time on public transport is also dead time. Given the choice (not a realistic option if you work in the Sydney CBD), I&#8217;d much rather be in my car with Radio National or ABC News Radio. Plus, in winter, a bus or train carriage is a mobile microbiological incubator.</p>
<p>Whether driving or travelling by Public Transport, my working hours have normally been flexible enough for me to leave early to miss the worst of peak hour, but that is not an option for those with fixed working hours or those who need to drop off and pick up children.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Davies</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7223</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 05:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7223</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Dylan Nicholson #29&lt;/strong&gt;:

Not always as productive &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2012/11/14/tokyo_compression_commuter_photos_by_michael_wolf.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;at peak hour&lt;/a&gt; though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Dylan Nicholson #29</strong>:</p>
<p>Not always as productive <a href="http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2012/11/14/tokyo_compression_commuter_photos_by_michael_wolf.html" rel="nofollow">at peak hour</a> though.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan Nicholson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7222</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan Nicholson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 02:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7222</guid>
		<description>That much is obvious enough.  And as I&#039;ve said before, even if PT or bicycling or car sharing is slightly slower, it&#039;s productive time vs dead time.  I dunno, maybe some people need &#039;dead time&#039;, or get some perverse sense of relaxation from sitting in traffic - I just know it drives me nuts.

Further, I can&#039;t help wonder if we&#039;d reduce traffic considerably if more people were to make use of technology to predict the least congested route.  But it&#039;s clear to me most people who make up peak hour traffic are creatures of habit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That much is obvious enough.  And as I&#8217;ve said before, even if PT or bicycling or car sharing is slightly slower, it&#8217;s productive time vs dead time.  I dunno, maybe some people need &#8216;dead time&#8217;, or get some perverse sense of relaxation from sitting in traffic &#8211; I just know it drives me nuts.</p>
<p>Further, I can&#8217;t help wonder if we&#8217;d reduce traffic considerably if more people were to make use of technology to predict the least congested route.  But it&#8217;s clear to me most people who make up peak hour traffic are creatures of habit.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Davies</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7213</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 21:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7213</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Dylan Nicholson #27&lt;/strong&gt;:

It suggests to me that other factors, not just travel time, might have a larger influence on the decision to drive (rather than take other modes), than is usually assumed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Dylan Nicholson #27</strong>:</p>
<p>It suggests to me that other factors, not just travel time, might have a larger influence on the decision to drive (rather than take other modes), than is usually assumed.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan Nicholson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7212</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan Nicholson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7212</guid>
		<description>And I would be entirely unconvinced that even as many as 25% of them had really weighed up all the alternatives sensibly and decided that sitting in freeway traffic was the best option for them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I would be entirely unconvinced that even as many as 25% of them had really weighed up all the alternatives sensibly and decided that sitting in freeway traffic was the best option for them!</p>
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		<title>By: CarlH</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7207</link>
		<dc:creator>CarlH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 05:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7207</guid>
		<description>@Dylan - i agree its a silly analogy.  My point is that i would be very surprised that 50% of people on a freeway have any option not to be on the freeway.  Charging people to use roads is fine if 50% don&#039;t need to be there;  if 99% of people on the freeway have to be there then charging people for it will have no effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dylan &#8211; i agree its a silly analogy.  My point is that i would be very surprised that 50% of people on a freeway have any option not to be on the freeway.  Charging people to use roads is fine if 50% don&#8217;t need to be there;  if 99% of people on the freeway have to be there then charging people for it will have no effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Davies</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7199</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7199</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;IkaInk #8&lt;/strong&gt;:

As I discuss &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/14/why-does-yet-another-toll-road-look-like-failing/#comments&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here towards the end&lt;/a&gt;, drivers don&#039;t see a $2.50 toll in the same way as the &quot;equivalent&quot; $2.50 worth of time. Cash is a stronger deterrent. Maybe it&#039;s a form of optimism bias or loss aversion or something else entirely. 

It does make me wonder though if the time savings attributed to road projects are over-valued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>IkaInk #8</strong>:</p>
<p>As I discuss <a href="http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/14/why-does-yet-another-toll-road-look-like-failing/#comments" rel="nofollow">here towards the end</a>, drivers don&#8217;t see a $2.50 toll in the same way as the &#8220;equivalent&#8221; $2.50 worth of time. Cash is a stronger deterrent. Maybe it&#8217;s a form of optimism bias or loss aversion or something else entirely. </p>
<p>It does make me wonder though if the time savings attributed to road projects are over-valued.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan Nicholson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7193</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan Nicholson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 20:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7193</guid>
		<description>Well good luck finding any government willing to take on imposing car bans on any shopping strip not in the CBD!  Hell, just getting retailers to agree to user-pays parking is hard enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well good luck finding any government willing to take on imposing car bans on any shopping strip not in the CBD!  Hell, just getting retailers to agree to user-pays parking is hard enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom the first and best</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/13/does-road-pricing-lead-to-more-driving/#comment-7192</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom the first and best</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=21852#comment-7192</guid>
		<description>22

Banning is certainly not overkill.

Many cycling accidents happen in clearly marked bike lanes.

Many of these shopping strips are only 4 lanes width roads and so parking plus a traffic lane, in each direction, means that there is not space for segregated bus/tram lanes.

I am against &quot;free&quot; parking(really paid for by everyone, whether or not they use it)but the cost of parking, I think you will find, has no relation to the accident rate.  Clearways put car traffic next to the footpath (with or without cafe/restaurant tables) and that is not so nice for those on the foot path and is almost entirely about getting more cars through.

Banning cars allows more space for a wider footpath, tram/bus only lanes and bike lanes not troubled by cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>22</p>
<p>Banning is certainly not overkill.</p>
<p>Many cycling accidents happen in clearly marked bike lanes.</p>
<p>Many of these shopping strips are only 4 lanes width roads and so parking plus a traffic lane, in each direction, means that there is not space for segregated bus/tram lanes.</p>
<p>I am against &#8220;free&#8221; parking(really paid for by everyone, whether or not they use it)but the cost of parking, I think you will find, has no relation to the accident rate.  Clearways put car traffic next to the footpath (with or without cafe/restaurant tables) and that is not so nice for those on the foot path and is almost entirely about getting more cars through.</p>
<p>Banning cars allows more space for a wider footpath, tram/bus only lanes and bike lanes not troubled by cars.</p>
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