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	<title>Comments on: Is improving public transport really this easy?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/</link>
	<description>Discussion about cities</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 00:14:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Alan Davies</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7371</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7371</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;rhubarb rhubarb #28&lt;/strong&gt;:

The Mandurah line was eons ago in terms of the history of infrastructure costs in Australia. There&#039;s also immense variability across projects, so you can&#039;t reasonably extrapolate from one. All of these issues have been discussed before at length (e.g. see &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/02/15/why-do-subways-cost-so-much-to-build-here-than-elsewhere/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/02/16/why-is-infrastructure-so-bloody-expensive/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;). There&#039;s a useful discussion of the circumstances of the Mandurah line in the comments section &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/07/26/is-this-too-good-to-be-true/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;of this article&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;d suggest people who trot out ridiculously out-dated figures like Mandurah aren&#039;t in touch with reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>rhubarb rhubarb #28</strong>:</p>
<p>The Mandurah line was eons ago in terms of the history of infrastructure costs in Australia. There&#8217;s also immense variability across projects, so you can&#8217;t reasonably extrapolate from one. All of these issues have been discussed before at length (e.g. see <a href="http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/02/15/why-do-subways-cost-so-much-to-build-here-than-elsewhere/" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/02/16/why-is-infrastructure-so-bloody-expensive/" rel="nofollow">here</a>). There&#8217;s a useful discussion of the circumstances of the Mandurah line in the comments section <a href="http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/07/26/is-this-too-good-to-be-true/" rel="nofollow">of this article</a>. I&#8217;d suggest people who trot out ridiculously out-dated figures like Mandurah aren&#8217;t in touch with reality.</p>
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		<title>By: rhubarb rhubarb</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7370</link>
		<dc:creator>rhubarb rhubarb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2012 14:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7370</guid>
		<description>Where&#039;s the &quot;conservative&quot; figure of $250M per km come from? The Mandurah rail line in Perth (including underground sections and 14 stations) came in at about $13.5 M per km. Actual engineering costs for double rails above ground are around $6M km, not including stations or land acquisition. Assuming a 25m reservation and land cost of $1000/m2, that&#039;s a further $25M/km. I&#039;d suggest that ridiculous figures like this are trotted out by people who don&#039;t want train lines to be built.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where&#8217;s the &#8220;conservative&#8221; figure of $250M per km come from? The Mandurah rail line in Perth (including underground sections and 14 stations) came in at about $13.5 M per km. Actual engineering costs for double rails above ground are around $6M km, not including stations or land acquisition. Assuming a 25m reservation and land cost of $1000/m2, that&#8217;s a further $25M/km. I&#8217;d suggest that ridiculous figures like this are trotted out by people who don&#8217;t want train lines to be built.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7328</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 03:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7328</guid>
		<description>Stephensons Road Mount Waverley looks allot like road rising over rail to me from street view and the grades onsite. Maybe its a combination of both which confuses things a bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephensons Road Mount Waverley looks allot like road rising over rail to me from street view and the grades onsite. Maybe its a combination of both which confuses things a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom the first and best</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7315</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom the first and best</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 00:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7315</guid>
		<description>Mount Waverley is not a road raising it is a railway that was built in a cutting.  The proper way to do it.

Raising the road over is about getting cars through without sufficient regard to the consequences.  It is not an acceptable solution in urban areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mount Waverley is not a road raising it is a railway that was built in a cutting.  The proper way to do it.</p>
<p>Raising the road over is about getting cars through without sufficient regard to the consequences.  It is not an acceptable solution in urban areas.</p>
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		<title>By: Dylan Nicholson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7314</link>
		<dc:creator>Dylan Nicholson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 00:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7314</guid>
		<description>Is it much cheaper long term though, counting the lost retail opportunities etc.?  It surprises me that when they do rail underpasses they often don&#039;t really take advantage of the opportunity to do at least some cut &amp; cover on either side of the road, particularly when they did Springvale Rd, but I guess it&#039;s not a sufficiently dense/busy retail hub.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it much cheaper long term though, counting the lost retail opportunities etc.?  It surprises me that when they do rail underpasses they often don&#8217;t really take advantage of the opportunity to do at least some cut &amp; cover on either side of the road, particularly when they did Springvale Rd, but I guess it&#8217;s not a sufficiently dense/busy retail hub.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin M</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7313</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 23:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7313</guid>
		<description>Tom road over rail is usually by far the cheapest option. Lowering rail often means chasing grade for long distances due to the very restrictive grades compared to roads and thus often the rebuilding of stations.
The problem with road over rail or road under rail comes when intersecting roads are to close to the rail or there is a high inflow of ground water (which can not be effectively pumped). 
I also don&#039;t think all road over rail jobs are as bad visually as Warrigal Road. Mount Waverley seems OK amenity wise (more minimal structure etc). I also think the new stockmans bridge (george street bridge) in dandenong $29.5m 2010 has future potential. At the end of the day we may be better off with 5-10 road overpasses for the price of 1-2 rail underpasses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom road over rail is usually by far the cheapest option. Lowering rail often means chasing grade for long distances due to the very restrictive grades compared to roads and thus often the rebuilding of stations.<br />
The problem with road over rail or road under rail comes when intersecting roads are to close to the rail or there is a high inflow of ground water (which can not be effectively pumped).<br />
I also don&#8217;t think all road over rail jobs are as bad visually as Warrigal Road. Mount Waverley seems OK amenity wise (more minimal structure etc). I also think the new stockmans bridge (george street bridge) in dandenong $29.5m 2010 has future potential. At the end of the day we may be better off with 5-10 road overpasses for the price of 1-2 rail underpasses.</p>
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		<title>By: mook schanker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7310</link>
		<dc:creator>mook schanker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7310</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t blink at $100m average for a crossing, though for a range I would say $50-$100m myself, so $75m? Pah, just get a cost estimate book and run some figures...Be much much cheaper to truncate the roads though :)

Dunno Dudley about the Czech timely &amp; half cost trams. They&#039;re not like cars that you can just chuck on a road and drive. Bombardier have a manufacturing plant in Czech (was called Ceska) and also in a lot of other countries in the world and growing significantly in Asia. The new Melbourne trams are built overseas primarily, just put together, seats chucked in and painted in Oz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t blink at $100m average for a crossing, though for a range I would say $50-$100m myself, so $75m? Pah, just get a cost estimate book and run some figures&#8230;Be much much cheaper to truncate the roads though <img src='http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/wp-content/mu-plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-smile.png' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Dunno Dudley about the Czech timely &amp; half cost trams. They&#8217;re not like cars that you can just chuck on a road and drive. Bombardier have a manufacturing plant in Czech (was called Ceska) and also in a lot of other countries in the world and growing significantly in Asia. The new Melbourne trams are built overseas primarily, just put together, seats chucked in and painted in Oz.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom the first and best</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7309</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom the first and best</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7309</guid>
		<description>5

That is a very ban idea.  raising the road over the railway is the worst kind of grade separation as it creates pedestrian hostile environments around the bridge.  It kills shopping strips (Warrigul Rd, Oakleigh being a prime example).  In the case of High St, the tram should not terminate near Glen Iris it should go further, at least to Ashburton.  Rail lowered under road is the best solution for level crossings followed by raising the railway and lowering the road, then raising the road.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5</p>
<p>That is a very ban idea.  raising the road over the railway is the worst kind of grade separation as it creates pedestrian hostile environments around the bridge.  It kills shopping strips (Warrigul Rd, Oakleigh being a prime example).  In the case of High St, the tram should not terminate near Glen Iris it should go further, at least to Ashburton.  Rail lowered under road is the best solution for level crossings followed by raising the railway and lowering the road, then raising the road.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Davies</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7308</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7308</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Robert Merkel #20&lt;/strong&gt;:

&quot;Trollrail&quot;! That is indeed a wonderful term. I also like &quot;Railbait&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Robert Merkel #20</strong>:</p>
<p>&#8220;Trollrail&#8221;! That is indeed a wonderful term. I also like &#8220;Railbait&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Davies</title>
		<link>http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2012/11/25/is-improving-public-transport-really-this-easy/#comment-7307</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/?p=22195#comment-7307</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;IkaInk #1&lt;/strong&gt;8:

The way infrastructure costs in Melbourne have been escalating, four years ago is an eternity. The Government has allocated $350 million for three level crossing eliminations. Whether that turns out to be the actual cost is another question.

All the interface design is done by Crikey management. I wish they&#039;d make a few other improvement too e.g. nested comment threads; a darker shade of green on hyperlinks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>IkaInk #1</strong>8:</p>
<p>The way infrastructure costs in Melbourne have been escalating, four years ago is an eternity. The Government has allocated $350 million for three level crossing eliminations. Whether that turns out to be the actual cost is another question.</p>
<p>All the interface design is done by Crikey management. I wish they&#8217;d make a few other improvement too e.g. nested comment threads; a darker shade of green on hyperlinks.</p>
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