Open threads

Jul 23, 2011


The tragedy in Norway has shocked the world. Sadly, some elements of the media were quick to use it as an opportunity to push their own ideological barrows. Andrew Bolt:

The tragedy in Norway has shocked the world. Sadly, some elements of the media were quick to use it as an opportunity to push their own ideological barrows.

Andrew Bolt:

Once the identity of the attackers becomes known, the consequences for Norway’s immigration policies could be profound

When details were made available “a man detained by police was aged 32 and ”ethnic Norwegian.”” the tune changed slightly.

Even so, the history of Islamic violence in Scandinavia suggests Muslim immigration there has been a bad deal for the locals:

Meanwhile, a blogger at the Daily Telegraph hasn’t yet updated his initial glib contention that “The group suspected of the atrocities is said to be motivated by cartoons”.

From that post’s comments:

BBC still seems to want very badly to believe that it’s a right-wing domestic terrorist…

No comment.

Update: We have been contacted to point out that the blog at the Daily Telegraph wasn’t updated when this post was published as the author was on a plane and unable to update it. The post was updated with more details. The author’s updates on the piece are as follows.

UPDATE. The murderer is a solitary psycho Norwegian

Apologies for no earlier update. Flying today.

UPDATE II. Leftsts in comments take offence at reports, sourced from the Guardian, that Islamic terrorists may have been responsible for a murderous attack on civilians. On reflection, they’re right. The very idea is laughable.

In the UK, News International’s The Sun is playing a similar game.


Perhaps Oklahoma City would be a better comparison?

Use this thread to highlight any other examples of news organisations using this tragedy to further an existing agenda, or simply misrepresenting the facts.

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244 thoughts on “Norway

  1. B.Tolputt

    @Angra – Cool bananas. We’re all sweet then.

  2. Angra

    Pat Buchanan declares his support for Breivik and his inciters…

    “A fire bell in the night for Norway

    From votes in Switzerland to polls across the continent, Europeans want an end to the wearing of burqas and the building of prayer towers in mosques.

    The flood of illegal aliens into the Canary Islands from Africa, into Italy from Libya and Tunisia, and into Greece from Turkey has mainstream parties echoing the right. The Schengen Agreement itself, which guarantees open borders within the European Union to all who enter the EU, is under attack.

    That threat comes from a burgeoning Muslim presence in a Europe that has never known mass immigration, its failure to assimilate, its growing alienation, and its sometime sympathy for Islamic militants and terrorists.

    Europe faces today an authentic and historic crisis.

    With her native-born populations aging, shrinking and dying, Europe’s nations have not discovered how to maintain their prosperity without immigrants. Yet the immigrants who have come – from the Caribbean, Africa, the Middle East, South Asia – have been slow to learn the language and have failed to attain the educational and occupational levels of Europeans. And the welfare states of Europe are breaking under the burden. “

  3. Angra

    OK BT – I apologise for all of what I said about your comments.

    There’s too much stupidity in the world already and I should not be contributing to it. Guilty as charged. Sorry tru. I will try and do better.

    But you must admit we got a bit of a positive outcome on the TB clinics – although not what I had hoped for. And my nephew is still undergoing treatment.

  4. Brizben

    Internet group Anonymous are re-editing the killers manifesto so there may be some dodgy copies posted around the internet:

  5. liliwyt

    That’s good news, Angra.

  6. B.Tolputt

    @Angra – Well, your language was not that considered at the time nor were your replies when I pointed it out. As I said at the time, I can understand your passion on the subject, but you were out of line with how far & who you were calling names.

    I’m not trying to be a pain about this, but whilst the apology about being told to shut up is appreciated, it’s far from the worst insult you threw my way. If I call you a bastard and apologise for later spelling your name wrong, I don’t think you’d be all sunshine and roses 😉

  7. Angra

    BT – I was just saying that we all bear some collective responsibility for the decisions our Government makes.

    By the way I have a reply from Roxon. The TB clinics are to stay open for 3 more months. Daru hospital is being upgraded courtesy of AusAid, the PNG treaty villages are having new clinics built, and the 60 PNG patients in Torres hospitals can stay until their treatment is complete.

    So maybe we have made a difference.

    Thanks everyone.

  8. B.Tolputt

    Apology accepted.

    That said, there is still the lingering insult regarding me & my family (as a subset of all Australians you called names & blamed “directly” for the TB clinic closure), I don’t classify as reasonable. As far as insults go, being told to shut up is far less a problem than the other stuff thrown my/our way.

    For what it is worth, I have a teddy-bear too from my childhood. Missing an eye and a little threadbare, but the sentimental value is up there with the photos of my children. Not quite as valuable as the photos but pretty damned close.

  9. SHV

    I haven’t seen this angle given any prominence:

    [Breivik says, “The time has come to stop the stupid support of the Palestinians…and to start supporting our cultural cousins – Israel.” The sight of the massacre was a camp which demanded, days earlier, that Israel “finish the occupation.” Anti-Israel, pro-Arab signs were hung in the camp. The death toll in the shooting and the explosion of a bomb in downtown Oslo stands at 93.]

    Which only makes this eye-witness statement even MORE chilling:

    [“Some of my friends tried to stop him by talking to him. Many people think on the island that it was a test … comparing it to how it is to live in Gaza. So many people went to him and tried to talk to him, but they were shot immediately.” – Adrian Pracon]

  10. GavinM

    Hi Angra @229,

    Thankfully I haven’t been through a divorce — touch wood. But I do understand that those things that we have an emotional attachment to are far more valuable than just money or other more material possessions, so I do understand where you are coming from at least a little bit 🙂

    Hi dallas @230

    No worries, I didn’t mean for my response to seem snarky — my apologies if it did…Sometimes the written word doesn’t quite come across as it is intended 🙂

    “I think that of all the psychopaths out there, the ones fueled by propaganda are probably the most dangerous.”

    Yes — and the disturbing thing about that is we never really know for sure exactly what will push them over the edge.

  11. dallas


    Yeah I’m not sure either really.

    And I wasn’t having a go at you by the way.

    I think that of all the psychopaths out there, the ones fueled by propaganda are probably the most dangerous.

  12. Angra

    This is probably not the right thread. But if you’ve been through a divorce maybe you will understand.

    I wasn’t the house, money, furniture, possessions, photos etc. she took. It was that damn teddy bear.

  13. Angra

    Thank you Gavin – never underestimate the formative influence of a loving teddy. Mine has one button eye (despite many repairs) had had open heart surgery, but still went ‘baaa’ when you tilted him. He even kept me going when I has suspected polio at age 6 and spent 3 weeks in hospital.

    He was so bald from years of cuddling I called him Fred Bear! (‘threadbear’ ha ha)

    I think throwing him out was more than adequate grounds for divorce (plus maybe the trivialities of desertion, breakdown of marriage, living apart for over 2 years, throw in a bit of violence etc. etc.).

  14. GavinM

    Hello Angra

    You’re obviously not a psycopath — your parents bought you the teddy, clearly you had more than reasonable grounds for divorce 🙂

    My 47 year old panda is still at my mum’s house — its had a long and productive life having been a favourite of all 3 of my kids as well.

  15. returnedman

    Of course the Daily Telegraph blogger isn’t dog-whistling with that update. The idea is laughable.

  16. Angra

    GavinM – my parents bought me a lovely teddy bear when I was 2. I kept it for 50 years until my wife threw it out 4 years ago.

    So we divorced.

    I think I’m a psychopath now.

  17. SHV

    Stephen Walt has written a piece critical of the haters’ rush to judgment. He has an excerpt from Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal (as it appeared for most of Saturday until they changed it). Double standards?:

    [Norway certainly did not buy itself much grace … for staying out of the Iraq war, or for Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg’s demand that Israel open its borders with Gaza, or for his calls for a Palestinian unity government between Fatah and its terrorist cousin Hamas.

    Norway can do all this and more, but in (the killers’) eyes it will forever remain guilty of being what it is: a liberal nation committed to freedom of speech and conscience, equality between the sexes, representative democracy and every other freedom that still defines the West. For being true to these ideals Norwegians have now been made to pay a terrible price.]

    That was written when they were still hoping the killings fitted their fantasies. Reading it against what we now know just shows how consistently dishonest and ideologically driven the Murdoch Choir is.

  18. GavinM

    Hello dallas, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make,

    I said earlier he’s a Right-wing political nutcase — but wether he was motivated by politics, religion, multiculturalism or because his parents didn’t buy him a teddy bear, his actions, the exerpts I’ve seen from his manifesto and his behaviour since being arrested point to the fact that he is a psycopath.

    Which isn’t to say that I think all psycopaths are mass-murderers, or even that they are potential mass-murderers.

  19. Angra

    BT – By the way I would like to apologise for telling you to shut up the other day – you hit me on a raw nerve.

  20. Angra

    BT – it is true some sections were lifted from Kaczynski. But the rest is a mish-mash of quotes, rants, observations and stream-of-consciousness dribble from all over the place.

    Kaczynski’s manifesto at least has the semblance of some intellectual coherence, and he was an accomplished mathematician. Breivik’s writings are much more of a cut and paste job with assorted ramblings.

    A bit like comparing the work of a reasonable academic with a below-average first year student.

  21. jules

    Haven’t yet read it all yet, but some people reckon his (TKs) manifesto is in there. But this guy wrote 1500 pages and the unabomber manifesto was only about 50.

    You know what tho… in his manifesto is a critique of Rupert Murdoch and concentration of media ownership. No shit. So not only has this guy approvingly nodded to Howard and Costello and George Pell, and parroted what we see implied in lots of opinion writing in Australia today, by a whole bunch of people, he has also supported Bob and Jooliar (which sounds disturbingly like “Jew liar” to me every time I hear it) in their call for an inquiry into media ownership.

    Cuing the trollumnists in 5, 4, 3…

  22. B.Tolputt

    I went looking for the entire manifesto and have come across a few places now stating it bears a strong resemblance to “The Unabomber Manifesto” authored by Theodore Kaczynski. Some rephrasing and swapping of “leftists” with “multiculturalism”, but mostly a plagiarised copy of Kaczynski’s work.

    Anyone know if there is truth to this or if this is just another meme making the rounds?

  23. lykurgus

    Yet again, even-handed reporting is confined largely to “terrorist havens”

    If conservatism (in todays form) wasn’t inbred*, they would’ve seen that this was coming. That branding any random opponent as a murderer/sponsor thereof, and denouncing the rule of law when it doesnt agree with you, would be taken by some psychopath to a Logical Conclusion.

    Like NotW would’ve known that exhorting A Certain Demographic to lynch paedoes would expand the casualty list to paediatricians.

    *(home-schooled, or sent to god-bothering schools, then to unaccredited “colleges” like ORU or real colleges with a conservative bent like Dartmouth, then shuffled into a think-tank or a conservative pamphlet like Nat Review. They know all the conservative talking points, and nothing else.
    What did you think I meant?

  24. dam buster of Preston

    thomasberret @200 and others..

    regarding the manifesto and JWH, Costello and Pell.

    Imagine that… By setting up a fear of others to suit your own political means you have helped someone on the other side of the world justify to himself the killing over nearly a hundred innocent people.

    A question that echoes from the halls of the Southbank typist “How many people have to die because of this immigration policy?”

  25. dallas


    0.6% of British population is psychopathic.
    Let’s say Norway is less psychotic, and has 0.2% of it’s population with psychopathy.
    That makes about 8,000 people.
    I wonder how many here in Australia?

    Makes me think that killing on this scale is more to do with extreme political ideals rather than (or as well as ) psychopathic tendencies.

    Bear in mind i’m just a keyboard hero with Google by my side and I could be completely missing your point.

  26. Angra

    There’s an interesting parallel between the argument that multiculturalism is to blame for the Norwegian atrocities (they let too many Muslims into Europe, so what do you expect?); and that women are to blame for violence and rape (they dress too provocatively, so what do you expect?).

    In both cases, blame the victim, diminish responsibility for the crime, and find more evidence to reinforce your prejudices.

  27. thirdborn314

    I don’t think I can read the Bolt stuff anymore, it is making me angry. The delusion on display and the lack of self awareness to identify the terrorist as being of the right is simply depressing. As someone of the left, I do feel threatened now that I know there are people out there who are prepared to take matters in their own mind just because a party of their own persuasion is not in power. The right wing chatter in Australia is rising, and similar in tone to that of the terrorist. The rational outcome for a lot of right wing chatter about violence to the left – is violence to the left.

  28. GavinM

    Yes Angra @176 — it does sound very familiar.

    Then again I suppose all such ultra-nationalist and own-culture type rants probably are by their very nature, pretty much the same.

    Multiculturalism seems to have been the major driver for Breivik in this case, but I suspect that such is his apparent hatred of the Left, that if it didn’t exist he would’ve found something else they were doing that he didn’t like and that would’ve become the reason for him to go on a killing spree.

    Psycopaths generally don’t have any trouble finding reasons to act.

  29. SHV

    They should’ve sent the Norwegian police to “capture” OBL.

    Hopefully, this whole episode will reveal to mr and mrs average the stupid futility of this fabricated ‘war on terror’, and double-standards used in the division of “us and them”.

  30. RobJ

    Glen Beck Hey? Another who’s spoken highly of by the bigoted idiots that post at Trollumnists.

  31. GavinM

    “If you read that sentence it is clear that he is rejecting those groups BECAUSE they are odinist.”

    Yes SHV, but you have to take the sentence in the context of the entire quote at @169.

    He’s rejecting Odinism as a means of rallying Europeans because it appeals only to a very limited number of people in comparison to christianity, it has nothing to do with his own religious beliefs.

    The point is, as I think MoC and Angra have both pointed out — the manifesto is so huge and rambling, not to mention basically insane, that there are no doubt going to be numerous contradictions and ambiguities in it.

  32. Angra

    How’s this for twisted logic – or just plain nonsense. Multiculturalism is to blame! And the Norway killings are indistinguishable from the Islamic attacks in London – so we can go on blaming the Muslims. WTF?

    Mr Angry quotes approvingly from Brendan O’Neil.

    “Brendan O’Neill says the London bombers and the mass murderer Breivik seem products of the same mulitcultural pathology”

    “Multiculturalism’s celebration of identity over solidarity, its promotion of the politics of self-pity and victimhood, of a perception that minority identities are continually under threat from the post-colonial and xenophobic attitudes of both society’s rulers and its native masses, found its most fanatical expression in the London bombings. In the bombers’ extraordinary levels of self-pity, combined with their arrogant belief that their Muslim identity gave them the right to hector the British throng, we got a glimpse of how far the multicultural ethos can be pushed. Breivik, for all his anti-multicultural pretensions, is not that different. Indeed, it is remarkable how much his so-called critique of multiculturalism seems bound by the parameters of multiculturalism itself.

    In his claim that he wanted to protect ‘white Christian identity’ from being overrun and crushed by an external powerful force – in this case Muslim immigrants – Breivik is merely indulging in an alternative form of multiculturalism. In different ways, both the 7/7 bombers and Breivik express the same sense of cultural paranoia, of cultural siege and victimhood.”

  33. confessions


    The Tampa was Norwegian, so it isn’t surprising Breivik would know about Howard’s and Costello’s comments about muslims. He also cited Keith Windschuttle as well.

  34. Ross Sharp

    Charlie Brooker on The Guardian …

    As more information regarding the identity of the terrorist responsible for the massacre comes to light, articles attempting to explain his motives are starting to appear online. And beneath them are comments from readers, largely expressing outrage and horror. But there are a disturbing number that start, “What this lunatic did was awful, but . . .”

    These “but” commenters then go on to discuss immigration, often with reference to a shaky Muslim-baiting story they’ve half-remembered from the press. So despite this being a story about an anti-Muslim extremist killing Norwegians who weren’t Muslim, they’ve managed to find a way to keep the finger of blame pointing at the Muslims, thereby following a narrative lead they’ve been fed for years, from the overall depiction of terrorism as an almost exclusively Islamic pursuit, outlined by “security experts” quick to see al-Qaida tentacles everywhere, to the fabricated tabloid fairytales about “Muslim-only loos” or local councils “banning Christmas”.

    We’re in a frightening place. Guesswork won’t lead us to safety.

  35. Bellistner

    Matthew of Canberra said:

    I think it’s time to start building Ark B.

    We could try to make a break for Carpathia, but that doesn’t seem to have gone very well.

  36. charlie george

    Check out how Glenn Beck spins this tragedy; blames multiculturalism, bashes Islam and the states the murderer is obviously a fan of “big government”. Oh and to top it off, the youth camp attacked in Norway “sounds a little like the Hitler Youth”. WTF!!!

  37. Matthew of Canberra

    This is giving me schadenfreude goosebumps:

    3.00pm: The Daily Mail columnist Melanie Phillips — some of whose writings were quoted by Breivik in his vast, rambling manifesto — has given her reaction, and spoken of the hate mail she has already received.

    She writes:

    Already, through the selective and distorted use of this document and the amplification of such malevolence through Twitter and the net, a blood-lust is building … Breivik may be one unhinged psychopath – but what is now erupting as a result of the Norway atrocity is the frenzy of a western culture that has lost its mind.

    I can’t imagine how somebody could selectively distort some of the things that phillips has written without making them sound better. At the time of posting, her web site is apparently off the air. Overloaded by messages of support, no doubt.

  38. Matthew of Canberra

    Still clutching at straw men, andy asks “Why are Muslims the victims when non-Muslims were shot?”.

    And quotes mark steyn (his link’s busted, though). That’s always a great start if you’re aiming for accurate, insightful coverage.

    Here’s the smoking red herring:

    The opening sentence from USA Today:

    Islamophobia has reached a mass murder level in Norway as the confessed killer claims he sought to combat encroachment by Muslims into his country and Europe.

    Ok, well, I personally don’t think that’s trying to make out that muslims are the victims. Not even a little bit. That paragraph is actually a fairly reasonable (if extremely narrow) reaction to the things that the gunman actually said. Here’s the USA today article:

    Here’s a report from the UK telegraph which kind of explains where that USA today article is coming from:

    In a televised statement, Judge Heger said: “He has not pleaded guilty. The accused believes that he needed to carry out this act in order to save Norway and western Europe from cultural Marxism and Muslim take over.

    “The object of the actions was to give a sharp signal to people. The Labour Party has failed the country and the people and price of their treason is what they had to pay yesterday.

    “The operation was not to kill as many innocent people as but to give a signal that could not be misunderstood. As long as the Labour party keeps driving its ideological line and mass importing of Muslims then it must assume responsibility for this treason.”

    He said the killings at the Labour Party youth camp was designed to stop recruitment to the centre-left party.

    “Any person with a conscience can’t allow their country to be colonised by Muslims,” he added.

    Get it, AB? Call it islamophobia or call it muslim-hatred, and he might be insane (although that’s sounding increasingly unlikely, in the narrow technical sense), but his dislike of muslim immigration would appear to be very much at the center of his reasoning, or at least that’s what he’s letting on. If those quotes are correct, then USA today is completely justified in its (slightly editorial) reporting.

    Steyn also goes on to have a moan about reports of mosques tightening security. How dare they! It’s probably a bit cautious, and I’m not discounting the possibility that those reports are simply made up (who’s going to check? really?), but let’s not forget this:

    During the hearing, which was closed to both the public and the media, Breivik warned there were “two more cells in our organisation” that would continue his work.

    So we have a murderous maniac with a clearly stated hatred of muslims, an obvious readiness to use violence and a claim to have mates ready to act. In looking to protect the people they can from that and any copy-cat acts, serious people in security agencies will be drawing up lists of potential targets. So … who can think of any targets that might be on that list? And who reckons they’d want to be the intelligence chief who said “nah, don’t be silly” when that unlikely attack DOES happen. CYA rules now.

    But by all means keep digging, guys. This is all going to come back to haunt you.

  39. thirdborn314

    And now the jester can’t work out why Muslims might be feeling a little threatened after a terrorist attack against the islamification of Europe. Haven’t heard one word of condolence to the actual victims either – namely a political party of the left. Has he stopped to think that maybe those of the left in Australia might feel a bit threatened as well? He really is a piece of crap.

  40. quantize

    [Wonder what it feels like to have a terrorist as a fan.]

    Rupert Murdoch was also a big fan of the rodent…what a great club that obviously is.

    And the jester for them all….i wonder what it would take for people to realise he’s precisely the same as everything he rails against.

  41. dallas

    and Windschuttle:

    “Australian writer Keith Windschuttle[22], a former Marxist, is tired of that anti-Western slant that permeates academia: “For the past three decades and more, many of the leading opinion makers in our universities, the media and the arts have regarded Western culture as, at best, something to be ashamed of, or at worst, something to be opposed. The scientific knowledge that the West has produced is simply one of many “ways of knowing.””

  42. dallas

    “Federal Treasurer Peter Costello[28] said Australian Muslim leaders need to stand up and publicly denounce terrorism in all its forms. Mr. Costello has also backed calls by Prime Minister John Howard for Islamic migrants to adopt Australian values. Mr. Howard caused outrage in Australia’s Islamic community when he said Muslims needed to speak English and show respect to women.”

  43. dallas

    “Luckily, not all Christian leaders are appeasers of Islam. One of the intelligent ones
    comes from Australia, a country that has been fairly resistant to Political Correctness.
    They have taken serious steps towards actually enforcing their own borders, despite the
    predictable outcries from various NGOs and anti-racists, and Prime Minister John Howard
    has repeatedly proven to be one of the most sensible leaders in the Western world.
    George Cardinal Pell[30], Archbishop of Sydney, tells of how September 11 was a wake-
    up call for him personally[31]:”

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